Kanji status in modern japanese

[seasurfer]

Does anyone know what is the kanji status in the current Japanese society? Do most Japaneses like to use or hate kanji?

[tiroth2]

They don't really have any more choice than Westerners have learning the alphabet; it's just a required part of life.

I don't really forsee Japanese ever giving up kanji because it is so hard to read things that are written solely in kana.

[Bucko]

When was the last time you thought about the "status" of the ABCs? Kanji might look all exotic to us but to the Japanese they're just plain old squiggles.

Also, most people who I've asked kanji questions to say that they they're beginning to forget how to write a lot of kanji because of mobile phones and computers.

[Jason]

Also, most people who I've asked kanji questions to say that they they're beginning to forget how to write a lot of kanji because of mobile phones and computers.

It's happening to me, too.

[seasurfer]

They don't really have any more choice than Westerners have learning the alphabet; it's just a required part of life.

I don't really forsee Japanese ever giving up kanji because it is so hard to read things that are written solely in kana.

But I realized that more and more people not using kanji. For example とても（迚も） ,people just use the hiragana. There are many more examples like this.

In addition, I realized that there are more usage of katakana words in modern japanese compare to japanese 50 years ago.

One thing that strike me is that, an article of the same thing can be written in a shorter length 50 years ago compare to now. That was because 50 years ago, people don't use so much katakana words, and used more kanji, hence making the length of the article shorter.

I bring this out, because as I go on with my Japanese, I realized that I am having trouble memorizing the spelling of katakana words. I just wonder why can't they use some simple kanjis to replace the long katakana...

[Airth]

I bring this out, because as I go on with my Japanese, I realized that I am having trouble memorizing the spelling of katakana words. I just wonder why can't they use some simple kanjis to replace the long katakana...

I know what you mean; I have so many problems remembering the spelling of the katakana words. But then I think that's down to sheer laziness on my part. I tend to be pretty sloppy with my learning of loan words as I sort of feel like I don't really need to learn them at all. Recently, I've started stripping them out from my word lists so that I can give them some decent study time by themselves.

With regards your point about taking up so much space, I'm not sure I agree. OK, they take up more 'boxes', but when it comes to stroke count you may find that, depending on the kanji, it is actually quicker to write the word out in katakana.

[Belton]

I bring this out, because as I go on with my Japanese, I realized that I am having trouble memorizing the spelling of katakana words. I just wonder why can't they use some simple kanjis to replace the long katakana...

The one thing I like about kana is that if I can say it properly I can write it. The hardest part is probably recognising long vowels and small tsu stops. So it's possible to learn kana and have some basic ability to write the Japanese you can speak. You can't say the same about learning the roman alphabet.

I think a lot of katakana words exist in some form as kanji.
I asked my teacher once why was the word スポットライト　used when there was what looked like a perfectly usable 点光　available. The answer was スポットライト sounds more modern and 点光 sounds old fashioned. I think amongst English speakers they would be more likely to choose the kanji word because it looks more authentic and foreign. They seem to tend to resist using katakana loan words. (even though I suspect most would find kanji difficult and at times frustrating to learn)

[tiroth]

I think most of the trend towards using kana is either due to loan words (as previously mentioned) or to simplify the orthography of idiosyncratic usages like とても（迚も） etc. You can see this even with common kanji like 下さる where the trend is to use kana in instances where a word supplies a grammatical function or idiosyncratic meaning as opposed to it's direct meaning. I think generally this makes sense, especially where a singleton kanji like 迚 doesn't really supply any additional meaning.

Additionally, some people think that the 20th century efforts to discourage furigana actually had the opposite effect of what their proponents intended; instead of strengthening literacy, they discouraged the use of rarer, more "literate" kanji since these kanji couldn't be supplied with their (more common) kana reading. I think this probably has some truth -- witness the widespread use of somewhat archaic orthography in samurai manga. Even though these are intended for teenagers or younger the unusual usages are easily read due to the furigana.

Of course, not everyone follows this trend; witness modern coinages such as 流石（さすが）. The only thing that is certain is that the language will continue to evolve and people will fight (mostly losing) battles trying to guide the evolution.

[seasurfer]

迚 - 8 strokes, 1 unit.
とても - 5 strokes, 3 units.

下さる - 6 strokes, 3 units
くださる - 10 strokes, 4 units.

迚, this word actually means very, so it can be used as a standalone word.

I feel that writting kanji is more convinient. On the top of that, it seems more easily recognizable to me. At least it save me so much time to figure out the boundary between two pure hiragana words. This is the reason why I couldn't understand why modern japanese language is using less kanji.

Another example,
豪州 - Australia
オーストラリア - Australia
The kanji for Australia is most likely to be used in the headline of a newspaper or the headline of an article in modern japanese today. I believe the reason is that it save space. However, in the article itself, the katagana is used. I just couldn't understand why. The katagana spelling doesn't look easy for me to memorize, at least a lot of time I tend to miss out the "ー", this is so frustrating. I really hate this kind of katagana. On the other hand the kanji writting is so much more managaeble once you know it. It also save so much space. Imagine if the whole article has 100 "オーストラリア", that is taking up 700 units, if it were written in kanji, it will only take up 200 units, a different of 500. In the old time, when paper is used, it save paper. Now when computer is used, I think it can save space and make the file smaller??? and save bandwidth???

I read somewhere on wikipedia, but I forgot where it is, seems that someone mentioned that because modern Japanese people want to differtiate their language from Chinese language, so they tend to use less kanji, can anyone validate this hyothesis? I would also like to mention one phenomenon that I seen in the Japanese version wikipedia, that version tend to favour the use of hiragana or katanan despite the fact that there is actually an equivalent kanji for it.

[Airth]

迚 - 8 strokes, 1 unit.
とても - 5 strokes, 3 units.

下さる - 6 strokes, 3 units
くださる - 10 strokes, 4 units.

迚, this word actually means very, so it can be used as a standalone word.

I feel that writting kanji is more convinient. On the top of that, it seems more easily recognizable to me. At least it save me so much time to figure out the boundary between two pure hiragana words. This is the reason why I couldn't understand why modern japanese language is using less kanji.

I can sympathise with what you're saying, but I think you'll find as your reading skill improves you'll realise that there just isn't a problem. The other point you make about the increased length when kana is used is true in theory, but again I think in practice it is simply not an issue.

For me, the balance between kanji, hiragana, and katakana seems to be about right in modern day Japanese. I would argue it is far more pleasing on the eye than the dense mass of kanji that is Chinese, and that katakana in particular provides a certain impact and feeling not found in kanji and hiragana. Also, if you only had kanji to work with, as in Chinese, surely you would still have problems working out the beginning and end of each word, wouldn't you?

I'd like to pick up on the two examples you gave:
In my opinion とても comes across much better in hiragana than the kanji 迚も, which incidentally requires the も at the end. Often expressive words like this appear too formal when the kanji is used, lacking the emotion given by the kana. You also can't communicate the colloquial とっても through the kanji alone.
Mikuji posted this link in another thread not so long ago that explains when the kanji 下 should be used with くださる / ください-http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~sanai/column/14kuda.html. In this case the choice between kanji or hiragana is determined by the context of your sentence.

Of course, I understand the point you are trying to make about length and number of strokes. Naturally, kanji will never lose out in terms of length, but when it comes to stroke count we could argue the difference all day. To give you an extreme example, which one would you prefer to write 憂鬱 or ゆううつ? You'll probably say the kanji as they are so interesting, well at least I would! But, from a practical standpoint you would be inclined to go with the hiragana, I believe.

I think at the end of the day, this frequently comes down more to what the writer is trying to communicate rather than length of the piece or any practical considerations. The reason the style of Japanese writing is changing can be attributed to a number of reasons, but one of them is undoubtedly due to the way the people of Japan wish to express themselves today. What better argument could there be for the current day balance between kanji, hiragana, and katakana?

[Tensei]

You know, I think reading pure kana sentences would be a lot easier if Japanese would start using spaces in between words.　Kanji is kind of a substitute for spaces sometimes, because when a new kanji starts you know its a new word.

Itsnotimpossibletoreadwithoutspacesofcourse,butitisharder. Thoughitkindofdependsonhandwriting,font,andhowproficientofareaderyouaretobeginwith.
LikeIreadbooksalotsoIcanreadthiseasily.OrmaybeitsjustbecauseImtheonewhotypedit, soIknowwhatitsaystobeginwith. Butitshouldbeagiventhatspacesmakesiteasierontheeyes.
IshouldstartaspacerevolutioninJapan.

[Bueller_007]

You know, I think reading pure kana sentences would be a lot easier if Japanese would start using spaces in between words.　Kanji is kind of a substitute for spaces sometimes, because when a new kanji starts you know its a new word.

Itsnotimpossibletoreadwithoutspacesofcourse,butitisharder. Thoughitkindofdependsonhandwriting,font,andhowproficientofareaderyouaretobeginwith.
LikeIreadbooksalotsoIcanreadthiseasily.OrmaybeitsjustbecauseImtheonewhotypedit, soIknowwhatitsaystobeginwith. Butitshouldbeagiventhatspacesmakesiteasierontheeyes.
IshouldstartaspacerevolutioninJapan.

Yeah, I agree to a point. I've had English-speaking friends try to get me to explain/proofread their kana-only keitai emails with Japanese people.

It's a pain in the butt to read when there's only kana. They need spaces.

And yeah, that would help for informal written Japanese.

But for formal written Japanese, you'd be SCREWED without kanji. ROYALLY.

To choose one word completely at random (although it's one that I was pretty sure there'd be a lot of hits for), look at all of the words that have the pronunciation "koushou":

光照 [こうしょう] (n) shining
工廠 [こうしょう] (n) arsenal
鉱床 [こうしょう] (n) ore deposit
校章 [こうしょう] (n) school badge
口誦 [こうしょう] (n,vs) recitation
咬傷 [こうしょう] (n) a bite (wound)
哄笑 [こうしょう] (n,vs) loud laughter
厚相 [こうしょう] (n) Welfare Minister
工匠 [こうしょう] (n) artisan, mechanic
黄梢 [こうしょう] (n) spring of yellow buds
好尚 [こうしょう] (n) taste, fancy, fashion
行賞 [こうしょう] (n) conferring of an award
高床 [こうしょう] (n) raised-floor (truck, etc.)
康正 [こうしょう] (n) Koushou era (1455.7.25-1457.9.28)
高声 [こうしょう] (adj-na,n) loud or high-pitched voice
高尚 [こうしょう] (adj-na,n) high, noble, refined, advanced
公証 [こうしょう] (n) authentication, notarization, notarisation
公娼 [こうしょう] (n) licensed prostitution, registered prostitute
口承 [こうしょう] (n,vs) passing on by word of mouth, oral tradition
交渉 [こうしょう] (n,vs) (1) negotiations, discussions, (2) connection
公傷 [こうしょう] (n) occupational injury, (sumo) injury at official tournament
公称 [こうしょう] (n,vs) (1) public name, announcing publicly, (adj-pn) (2) nominal

Okay. So in spoken Japanese, they'd probably only use ONE of these:
交渉 [こうしょう] (n,vs) (1) negotiations, discussions, (2) connection

And based on edict's 20,000 most commonly used words, maybe:
厚相 [こうしょう] (n) Welfare Minister
高尚 [こうしょう] (adj-na,n) high, noble, refined, advanced
公称 [こうしょう] (n,vs) (1) public name, announcing publicly, (adj-pn) (2) nominal
考証 [こうしょう] (n,vs) (historical) investigation

The rest are words that they would understand when they saw them, but wouldn't be able to put two and two together in their minds when hearing them.

And sometimes there's only so much you can decode from context. Two nice words here for you:
授賞 [じゅしょう] (n,vs) giving a prize
受賞 [じゅしょう] (n,vs) receiving a prize

As it is now, the Japanese language would fall apart without kanji. I think that's the appeal of katakana. In addition to the "hip factor", katakana is easy to read, easy to write, and there are very few homonyms, so you can understand them just as easily if they're written or spoken.

[Jason]

きょうだい is another interesting example. At least I think it is. All of these mean "siblings" but each one is different.

兄弟 = older and younger brother
姉妹 = older and younger sister
兄姉 = bro and sis
兄妹 =older bro, younger sis
姉弟 = older sis, younger bro

The kanji version of あなた is also intersting like this.

貴方 = generic you
貴女 = specifically female

Kanji can also help you make educated guesses about words you don't know if you know the meaning of all or most of the individual characters. Like when I came across the words 敵艦隊[てきかんたい] and 帰艦[きかん] for the first time. I find I can remember words better based on their kanji than their reading alone.

[seasurfer]

You know, I think reading pure kana sentences would be a lot easier if Japanese would start using spaces in between words.　Kanji is kind of a substitute for spaces sometimes, because when a new kanji starts you know its a new word.

Itsnotimpossibletoreadwithoutspacesofcourse,butitisharder. Thoughitkindofdependsonhandwriting,font,andhowproficientofareaderyouaretobeginwith.
LikeIreadbooksalotsoIcanreadthiseasily.OrmaybeitsjustbecauseImtheonewhotypedit, soIknowwhatitsaystobeginwith. Butitshouldbeagiventhatspacesmakesiteasierontheeyes.
IshouldstartaspacerevolutioninJapan.

If Japanese start using space, I think they would destroy the beauty of the langauge, it will look weird, at least to me. One of the main reason I like the Japanese language is because there is a mixture of kanji, hiragana and katagana. However, when there is too much hiragana and katagana, I have to put in more effort to read the article, and that is tiring, especially a long one, that is why I really hate the overusing of hiragana and katagana. It is overused in modern Japanese, especially the pop culture.

[seasurfer]

きょうだい is another interesting example. At least I think it is. All of these mean "siblings" but each one is different.

兄弟 = older and younger brother
姉妹 = older and younger sister
兄姉 = bro and sis
兄妹 =older bro, younger sis
姉弟 = older sis, younger bro

The kanji version of あなた is also intersting like this.

貴方 = generic you
貴女 = specifically female

Kanji can also help you make educated guesses about words you don't know if you know the meaning of all or most of the individual characters. Like when I came across the words 敵艦隊[てきかんたい] and 帰艦[きかん] for the first time. I find I can remember words better based on their kanji than their reading alone.

I have the same feeling as you too. I remember the words better if there is a kanji, at least I remember the shape of the kanji, even if I can't remember how to pronounced it. But because there is a kanji, most of the time, I can still guess the meaning and how it is pronounced. That is the good thing about kanji. However a pure hiragana is not going to give me this kind of effect, once I forget, it means that I really forget.

This is an example from Yahoo! Japan.
1.コンピュータとインターネット
2.自然科学と技術

At the moment of looking at 2, I can immediately figure out what it is. However, I have to spend an extract few seconds to decode what is 1. I hope the Japanese authority can invent some kanji for these kinds of common words, it really makes life so much easier. 1 is even made worst if it is in the middle of an article or in the middle of tons of katagana. On the top of that, I think Japanese people should try to invent some of the words instead of blindly copying the English langauge, it is a real pain when you read a Japanese article with so many English-originated words. I just feel like telling the author, you must well write it in English and not Japanese.