Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

[Tracel]

小狼さん, くろくまさん、

小狼さん said:
Edit: I'm not sure about とした actually... I have a feeling としていた would be better, since you're describing the state of doing that thing to serve as context for the next clause.

The phrase ようとする is the infinitive for this construction so you can probably conjugate it in whichever way you need to.

Also, like I mentioned to くろくまさん, the volitional tense does not mean 'desire or want' although it is easy to mistake the word for meaning that. Volition means 'have a will or intent to do something', which is close to 'want' but definitely not the same. This distinction is the same in Japanese sentences:

I want to read that book tomorrow. (because it is interesting).
私はその本を読みたいです。

I shall read that book tomorrow. (because it is on the homework list, but not necessarily because I want to.)
私はその本を読もう。

To create a sentence that means "I've decided/am going to read the book tomorrow", we need to add と思っています to the end.

私はその本を読もうと思っています。

I hope this helps somewhat.

トラ

[mewes6190]

トラさん、

The phrase ようとする is the infinitive for this construction so you can probably conjugate it in whichever way you need to.

Also, like I mentioned to くろくまさん, the volitional tense does not mean 'desire or want' although it is easy to mistake the word for meaning that. Volition means 'have a will or intent to do something', which is close to 'want' but definitely not the same.

That with the ようとする is a great bit of information, and of course it makes perfectly sense!

As for the distinction between want/desire and "having the will and intend", that one's more or less my mistake in translating from German to english.
In German, it's all the same word: "wollen", or "Ich will". "Ich will Japanisch lernen", means, "I intend to learn japanese", while "Ich will das Auto da" means I want that car over there / I desire that car over there. There's no such sharp distinction in Germany, it's more or less contextual, or, maybe, it's more about an action and some object: "Wollen" or "Ich will" with an object often means desire, while with an action often means intention.
Anyway, In my practice sentences, I always used "wanted to" in the meaning of "I intended to", so I picked the wrong english translation.
So, thanks a lot for clearing that up and correcting it. (Sometimes it's hard to use a foreign language to talk about another foreign language... )


As far as I know it, the want/desire form in japanese is either with -たい or the ば-form, isn't it?

Best
くろくま

[mewes6190]

トラさん、

Thanks for all your input, it's really helpful. As I said before, of course I always wanted to say "I intend to / Intended to" and mixed it up in english.

But I still have some questions.

1. たくさんお金をためよう。
I want to save up a lot of money.
I shall save up a lot of money.

Even though I know that it's correct, it sounds wrong for my german ears, because it sounds like an order. "Ich soll" means "I must", and shall is phonetically so close to "soll", that it sounds kinda harsh.
Could I also say "I intend to save up a lot of money", or would that be wrong? It's more or less simply a choice of words better suited for my ear, so it's a luxury question.

On to the phrase: [ようとしたとき]:
The above explanation tells us that: In the form しようとする shiyō to suru: be about to or be trying to. 犬が吠えようとしている Inu ga hoeyō to shite iru: "The dog is about to bark."　

This seems to be a combination of Volitional verb + the phrase [—とする], which used together mean someone 'tries to do something', or 'is about to do something". So, again, there is no sense of "wanting to..." but of "intending or trying to..." :mrgreen:

That's fantastic!! I always like to know where a phrase is coming from and ow it is constructed, it helps me a lot to remember and understand it, and I think you're spot on here. Again, "intention" has been meant by the word "want"...
Your translation of "was just about to" of course is much more to the point. My textbook used "wollte", so I got a bit off track.

8. テレビを見ようとしたとき、停電したんです。
Just as I wanted to watch TV, there was a power shortage.
I was just about to watch TV, when there was a power outage.（Shortage means something else).

Ah, correct! It's water shortage, isn't it? Outage is a funny word, though. Sounds like outtake.

10. ハイディ・クルムを結婚しようとしたとき、起きるしまいました。
Just as I was about to marry Heidi Klum, I woke up. Correct

Yay! See, in my I always knew the correct translation...

11. 妻を殺そうとしたとき、優免しました。(not sure if this is the correct phrase or not)
Just as I was about to kill my wife, I forgave her. Correct

Yes, me neither. I looked it up in an online dictionary, and it was the one whose german translation fitted the most, but mainly I simply guessed there... :/

Thank you so much for your insights and information. See, I have the benefit of getting better at japanese AND english here!

Wow, you did a lot of work. I am going to take a break and then do some of my own sentences.

トラ

I'm looking forward to it. Also, if you want to, you might choose the next よう!

[Tracel]

Kurokuma-san,

I was going to do some of my own sentences when I started having computer problems.

So, I didn't get to them this evening unfortunately. I am glad that my notes helped you . I learn a lot from looking all of this up to make sure that I am not WRONG. Still, there is no guarantee even after looking stuff up that I am right.

Even though I know that it's correct, it sounds wrong for my german ears, because it sounds like an order. "Ich soll" means "I must", and shall is phonetically so close to "soll", that it sounds kinda harsh.
Could I also say "I intend to save up a lot of money", or would that be wrong? It's more or less simply a choice of words better suited for my ear, so it's a luxury question.

Yes, you can definitely say "I intend to save up a lot of money". Another way would be "I am going to save up a lot of money." The meanings are pretty close. I think "intend" may sound a bit more formal and therefore a bit more "certain".

I hope that you have a great day. I'm off to bed zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Tora

[thegooseking]

くろくまさん、トラさん、

As far as I know it, the want/desire form in japanese is either with -たい or the ば-form, isn't it?

To want to do something is either たい or たがる. The way the Jpod lesson I listened to put it, たい is for yourself and たがる is for describing things others want to do. My grammar book, however, says that たがる just has stronger intensity of emotion.

To want someone else to do something, or to want a noun, you would use ほしい.

ば on its own is a conditional, but I think you can use it as a less direct way to express desire in the sense of "If [desired thing], that would be good." - たくさんのお金を貯めば、いいです。 - "If I save up a lot of money, that would be good."

1. たくさんお金をためよう。
I want to save up a lot of money.
I shall save up a lot of money.

Even though I know that it's correct, it sounds wrong for my german ears, because it sounds like an order. "Ich soll" means "I must", and shall is phonetically so close to "soll", that it sounds kinda harsh.
Could I also say "I intend to save up a lot of money", or would that be wrong? It's more or less simply a choice of words better suited for my ear, so it's a luxury question.

Technically 'shall' isn't so correct here in English. 'Shall' refers to something that you're going to do (but don't necessarily want to), while 'will' means something that you intend to do. In other words, 'shall' is simple future, but 'will' is volitional. Actually, it's more complicated than that, but that's at least true in the first-person (in the second- and third-person their meanings get swapped). The distinction is not commonly observed in British English today (though 50 years ago, it was) and has never existed in American English (which is why I say it "isn't so correct", rather than 'wrong'), but it's still useful for explaining things in German

小狼

[mmmason8967]

Even though I know that it's correct, it sounds wrong for my german ears, because it sounds like an order. "Ich soll" means "I must", and shall is phonetically so close to "soll", that it sounds kinda harsh.
Could I also say "I intend to save up a lot of money", or would that be wrong? It's more or less simply a choice of words better suited for my ear, so it's a luxury question.

Yes, you can say "I intend to save up a lot of money"; it makes it clear what you mean. The trouble with "will" and "shall" is that they're a bit tricky. Basically, for a plain future tense you use "shall" for the first person (I or we) and "will" for the second and third persons (you, he, she and they), like this:-

I shall be late.　　　　　(if I don't hurry, for example)
You will be late.　　　　(if you don't hurry, for example)

If you want to express determination, use "will" for the first person and "shall" for the second and third persons:-

I will not put up with it!
You shall go to the ball!

It's a bit complicated, and to make it worse, some regions apply the rules exactly the other way round: I believe that in England the usage is as described above while in Scotland it's the exact opposite.

So saying "I intend to save up a lot of money" instead is probably a very good idea!

マイケル

[mewes6190]

みなさん、

Ah, you guys are awesome, I really love to talk about such things with people who like languages and take them seriously!!

Thanks for all the input. I'm really learning a lot here!

うろくま

[Tracel]

Hi Everyone,

The fun thing about languages, at least living ones, is that they constantly change. Like マイケルさん　said, rules change depending on the region, and like 小狼さん　said, rules also change over time. I am Canadian, so my speech patterns are nicely between American English and British English. When I was teaching English in Japan, Canadian teachers were sought after because our spoken English was the easiest to understand supposedly. Who knows if that is still true, as it was 20 years ago now.

トラ

[Tracel]

皆さん、

ごめんなさい、この文書が遅くなりました。私のコンピューターが本当に馬鹿になってしまいました。新しいオペレーティングシステムがバージョンアップした後に、日本語の字を入るたびにその使っているプログラムはクラシュされてしまいます。大変。Macという会社は日本語のために一番いいシステムだと言われていますので、このコンピューターを買う訳なのに、日本語しか問題になりません。

じゃあ、練習を続けましょう。

Volitional Sentences:

１。この練習を続けようか。
Shall we continue this practice?

２。まだこの問題直させられなかったので、もう一度修繕工場（しゅうぜんこうじょう）を電話かけよう。
I will phone the repair shop again because this problem still isn’t fixed.

３。私達がメキシコに行ったら、友達は私の犬の面倒を見るので、その代わりに私は彼らの犬たちの面倒を見よう。
Because our friends are taking care of my dog when we go to Mexico, I will/shall look after their dogs in return.

Volitional + to suru (was about to...; trying to…):

１。飛行機が離陸（りりく）しようとしている時なのに、急に誰かが飛び立ちました。
Even though the airplane was just about to take off, when suddenly someone leaped to their feet.

２。お箸でお城を建て終わろうとした時、大風に倒されました。
I was just about to finish building a castle out of chopsticks, when it was knocked down by a big wind.

３。アイスクリームを食べようとした時に、歯がすごく痛み始めました。
I was just about to eat some ice-cream, when my tooth started to hurt.

Ta da…..

次の文法の句を明日選ぼうと思っています。今、ビクトリアに暴風（ぼうふう）があるので、今晩、停電するかもしれませんね。

お元気で、
トラ

[mewes6190]

トラさん、
I hope you got through the storm fine. Your computer acts really weird. Anyway, there's one point in your sentence I don't get, maybe you could help me? Your last sentence was:

Macという会社は日本語のために一番いいシステムだと言われていますので、このコンピューターを買う訳なのに、日本語しか問題になりません。

What is that しか? The bad thing is, because of that I don't get the whole sentence... Has Japanese been a problem with macs or not? Maybe you might help me with that しか?

Apart from that, I think your practice sentences are just fine!

If I might make a suggestion for at least my next sentences: To not leave the ようs alltogether yet, I'd like to compare ように and ために which are pretty identical. I only can't remember the negative of ために, while the negative of ように is ないように. Except here I'd have to look up what contrasts ように+negative from ないように...

I hereby announce that I'll write some practice sentences about this, but probably not before wednesday or thursday, since I have to get back to work today... :/

But that'll give me time to look those points up again.

Best
くろくま

[Tracel]

くろくまさん、

はじめの質問は「しか～ない」の意味ですよね。

Macという会社は日本語のために一番いいシステムだと言われていますので、このコンピューターを買う訳なのに、日本語しか問題になりません。
What is that しか? The bad thing is, because of that I don't get the whole sentence... Has Japanese been a problem with macs or not? Maybe you might help me with that しか?

「しか～ない」　Means 'nothing / nobody / no...but.. / only. Related expressions are bakari and dake.

This is another one of those expressions that is negative in Japanese, but ends up mostly being expressed as a positive in English.

１．パーティーには学生しか来なかった。
Only students came to the party.
２．私は日曜日しか来られません
I can only come on Sunday.
３．姉はサラダしか食べなかった。
My sister ate only salad.

My sentence says:　日本語しか問題になりません。Only Japanese is a problem.　So the meaning of the whole sentence (I hope) is: "Even though the reason I bought this computer is because the company MAC is said to be the best system for the Japanese language, ONLY Japanese is a problem.

Whether I got the Japanese correct in the sentence I am not too sure. But I want to challenge myself to make more complicated Japanese sentences from now on. I was just too lazy yesterday to put a translation with it. Sorry.

If I might make a suggestion for at least my next sentences: To not leave the ようs alltogether yet, I'd like to compare ように and ために which are pretty identical. I only can't remember the negative of ために, while the negative of ように is ないように. Except here I'd have to look up what contrasts ように+negative from ないように...

That sounds like a good idea. I can put together some sentences like that too. Comparing some of the expressions that mean similar things is something I want to focus on as well. So if you don't mind, I will get started on ように and ために. Warning though; they are not the same really , although there are similarities in some of the meanings.

くろくまさんは元気になって、よかったですね。 仕事に帰らなきゃならないこと以外に。。。

トラ

[Tracel]

Sentences with 「ように」と「のために」

「ように」‐Meaning: Do something in such a way that….

1.　ここから読めるように,　字を大きく書いてください。
Please write the characters big (enough) so that I can read it from here.

２．紫になるように、赤と青を混ぜていた。
I mixed red and blue together to make purple.

３．彼女は素晴らしい成績を取れるように、毎日六時間に勉強していました。
She studied for six hours every day so that she could get awesome grades.

「のために」Can mean several things depending on context. One meaning is similar to [ように], ‘in order to…’ or ‘for the purpose of…’ or ‘for the benefit of…’　Often translated as “for” in English. (This meaning only happens if the ためにclause is something ‘controllable’.)

１．私は妖怪を研究のために、日本の京都と言う町に行きました。
In order to research youkai, I went to a Japanese city called Kyoto.

２．日本語を学ぶために、アニメを毎晩見ています。
In order to learn Japanese, I watch anime every night.

３．私もっと元気になるために、ハワイに六か月間住んでいます。
To become healthier, I live in Hawaii for six months.

Another meaning of [ために] is: Reason, because…., due to…. This meaning happens if ためにdescribes something non-controllable; if it has an (i) or (na) adjective before it; or if the ためにclause is in the past tense.

１．子供の子ら不器用なために、笑われました。
Because I was clumsy when I was a child, I was laughed at.

２．雨が降っていたために、犬と一緒に散歩できなかった。
Because it was raining, I couldn’t go on a walk with the dog.

３．友達が訪ねてきたために、週末はすごく楽しかったです。
Because my friend came to visit, the weekend was really fun.

トラ　

[mewes6190]

トラさん、
thanks for your explanation about しか...ない. By chance I found that clause in my "All about particles" and will read further into it.
Now that I get that one, your whole sentence makes perfect sense. Sadly, my japanese is kinda okay, as long as the sentences are short and not too many subjects and objects are omitted. As soon as they are, or the sentence gets too much content between the は and the final verb, I get thrown of quicker than from a wild bull in a rodeo.
It's really annoying: As long as I get a translation, I can follow the sentence perfectly, but I still can't put it together on my own yet. But hopefully that'll come in time. I just keep practicing.

Which brings us to my contribution to the ために and ように discussion! (Well, I just upgraded my MAC OS too, and can't write all my brackets anymore... )

So, here's what I got about ように and ために:

- ため in itself is a noun.
- It's use is either verb in plain form + ために or Noun + のために
- ように is used with a plain form + ように
- While both mean: "to the end of" in all their variations, there are subtle differences in meaning. My textbook explains it this way:
ために is used when something is to be achieved. ように is used when an improvement to an situation is expected.
In the end I understood it this way: When you do something which has a particular, controllable effect, you use ために. When you hope, that a situation gets better, but your action has only possible and indirect effects, ように is your phrase of choice.
For example (and I'm leaning on my textbook here): If you hire more software engineers to get quicker results in developing a new anti-virus software, you have a concrete effect in order, therefore, you would choose ために.
If you leave the house early so you won't be late for a date, or put a 招き猫 in your window, so that more お客 come in, both is an action in the HOPE for an improved effect, but in the end you can't control the result, therefore you would choose ように.

This far, as I can see it, I'm d'accord with トラさん。

Now I'd simply like to try out these insights.

1. 日本語で上手になるために、毎日勉強します。
I study every day to get better at Japanese.

2. 新しい家のために、新しい奉職先を探します。
For a new home, I'm looking for a new workplace.

3. あの映画をみるように、早くかえりたいです。
I would like to leave early, so I can see that movie.

4. 一番好きな人のように、全文をしよう! (I'm not sure I chose the right form here for "would do")
For my most beloved people, I would do anything.
(Actually, I think that it should ALWAYS be ように with the "would do" form, shouldn't it?)

And last but not least, maybe a tricky one:
5. 退院のために、元気になりますよ。
To get released from Hospital, I have to get better.
So, why do I think this one as tricky? On one hand, it's pretty controllable: Once you get better, you WILL leave the hospital. On the other hand: Can you really control getting better?
So, maybe it's
病院のように、元気になりますよ。

What do you think?

Plus: I'm already working on the next よう! ;D

くろくま

[charliegchen8215]

My sentence says:　日本語しか問題になりません。Only Japanese is a problem.　So the meaning of the whole sentence (I hope) is: "Even though the reason I bought this computer is because the company MAC is said to be the best system for the Japanese language, ONLY Japanese is a problem.

こんにちは。私も日本語の学習者ですが、ちょっと訂正させていただきます。「日本語しか問題になりません」はちょっとおかしいと思います。「問題になる」って望まれることではありませんね。「しか…ない」という表現も、その望まれてない状態になってしまったっていうニュアンスがあると思います。だから、これらの表現を重ねると、二重否定になってしまいます。つまり、日本語を入力できないこと自体はなぜかいいことになりました。この場合、「日本語だけは問題になりました。」と言えばいいと思います。

あとに、その文を翻訳させていただきます。

マックという会社のパソコンは日本語に一番システムだと言われているから買ったのに、なぜか日本語だけは問題になりました。

あとは「ように」と「ために」との違いについて説明させていただきます。確かにどちらもある目的を達成するための手段や方法を表しますが、「ように」は無意志的な動作のみに適用し、その反対に「ために」は意志的な動作のみに適用します。そのゆえ、両者はいつでも、そのまま置き換えられません。その動作は無意志的な行動なのか、意志的な行動なのか、文脈によって判断するしかないこともあります。

映画を見る、食べ物を食べるとかは明らかに意志的な行動。
元気になる、誰にでもわかる、日本語が上手になるとかは無意志的な行動となります。
あとは両方に当てはまる動詞もあります。遅れないように、遅れないために、どちらもOKです。

3. 私もっと元気になるように、ハワイに六か月間住んでいます。
To become healthier, I live in Hawaii for six months.

3. あの映画をみるために、早くかえりたいです。
I would like to leave early, so I can see that movie.

[Teabag]

あとは「ように」と「ために」との違いについて説明させていただきます。確かにどちらもある目的を達成するための手段や方法を表しますが、「ように」は無意志的な動作のみに適用し、その反対に「ために」は意志的な動作のみに適用します。そのゆえ、両者はいつでも、そのまま置き換えられません。その動作は無意志的な行動なのか、意志的な行動なのか、文脈によって判断しかないこともあります。

charliegchen8215さん、
すごい日本語です。
大変勉強になりました。
私はその意志的な無意志的な動詞の違いを知りますけど、話すとき全然覚えられません。
言葉さえ思いつくのはずいぶん忙しいんです。
また、一緒に勉強しましょう。