Problem deciding what a sentence really means

[mmmason8967]

I am reading a short article about the difference beween 知る and 分かる and there is one sentence that I cannot work out.　Here it is:-

そのため、「考えればわかります。」とはいえても「＊考えれば知ります。」とはいえません。

The green words are example sentences: they are not part of the problem. The red words are the ones I am having trouble with. I'm fairly sure that the sentence says that the second example is something you cannot say. But I can't decide if it's saying that the first example is (also) something you cannot say, or if it's saying that first example is (in contrast) something you can say.

マイケル

[Teabag]

そのため、「考えればわかります。」とはいえても「＊考えれば知ります。」とはいえません。

マイケルさん、
I think this is the variation of the pattern 「...といっても...ない」 which means "you could say this, but.../Though..., ..."
The 「は」following 「と」is to put an emphasis on the 2 topics in this sentence, and please also note that the verbs in your sentences are in potential forms.

More examples of 「...といっても...ない」
1. 今度の誕生日ごちそうするよ。ごちそうといっても、大したことはできないけどね。
Though I am going to give you a treat, it's nothing fancy.

2. 雨が降っているといっても、傘はささなくても大丈夫だ。
It's raining, but it's OK to not put up an umbrella.

I guess you understand accuracy in my comments is always not guaranteed!

[mmmason8967]

Teabagさん
わざわざすみません。

I think this is the variation of the pattern 「...といっても...ない」 which means "you could say this, but.../Though..., ..."

Yes, that does seem very like the pattern being used. I'd felt that the sentence ought to be saying "you can say A but you can't say B", but the も in the middle seemed to be saying "...and also..." to me. From what you're saying, though, the sentence says something like:-

Consequently, although you can say 「考えればわかります。」, you cannot say 「＊考えれば知ります。」.

ありがとうございました。

マイケル

[Tracel]

Hi　マイケルさんとTeabagさん、

This is a very good translation マイケルさん。I know I find the positives and negatives in Japanese quite confusing too. It sounds like you are reading an article completely in Japanese. Awesome.　

Consequently, although you can say 「考えればわかります。」, you cannot say 「＊考えれば知ります。」.

Cheers,
トラ

[mmmason8967]

It sounds like you are reading an article completely in Japanese. Awesome.　

I don't feel very awesome--my progress is rather slow

I read somewhere that one of the most difficult jobs is an interpreter doing simultaneous translation--that is, as you hear what someone is saying in one language, you repeat it in another language while the other person is talking. Apparently it is so difficult that even the best interpreters can only do simultaneous translation for about fifteen minutes at a stretch. It occurred to me that that's how I try to speak Japanese: I think of what I'm going to say in English and then I try to do simultaneous translation into Japanese and, of course, it doesn't work at all well.

I'd really like to be able to avoid the first stage, the stage where I plan what I'm going to say in English. That happens with something like a self-introduction: it doesn't seem to involve the bit of my brain that handles English--but I still know what I'm saying. Of course, a self-introduction has a fairly set pattern; but it also involves a lot of words and phrases--はじめまして and よろそくおねがいします, for example--that simply don't have equivalents in English, and don't translate at all well.

And--at last--I get to the point. I feel that if I can "adopt" Japanese words that don't translate very well into English then I'll be able to (a) avoid translating them from English because they're already in Japanese and (b) avoid mistakes. 知る and 分かる don't translate very well: they're usually explained as "to know" and "to understand", which really isn't either accurate or helpful. So I want to try to grasp 知る and 分かる as they are, without any English equivalent. And that's why I'm reading about them in Japanese: the one thing I'm sure I can rely on is that the article is not going to compare them with the English verbs "to know" and "to understand".

マイケル

[Tracel]

マイケルさん、

I'd really like to be able to avoid the first stage, the stage where I plan what I'm going to say in English.

I know exactly what you mean, although I still think that it is great that you are attempting to read it in Japanese. That is a perfect way to your goal. I haven't done this for a while, but one of my professors way back when, had us buy a grade school Japanese to Japanese dictionary, and had us look up words first in that. Of course, even for the definitions I had to look up definitions, but it gave us a lot more reading practice. Maybe, I will start doing that again.

I am constantly trying to go directly into Japanese, but I know my biggest problem is because I can be pretty eloquent in English, I WANT to be eloquent in Japanese too. Like that works out, eh. Even when I am translating my English ideas without the 'simultaneous', this gets me into trouble all the time. I want to say something witty, or rather colloquial but rarely can do that with the tools at hand and a lot of time.

I used to want to be a simultaneous translator at one point. It still appeals on some levels, but like you said, it is an extremely stressful occupation. Many UN translators only last a short time and then burn out because it is so stressful, and most of them get a look at the material to be discussed ahead of time. Can you imagine saying the wrong thing in those circumstances? I love translating from Japanese into English, because I challenge myself to put the words in REAL English rather than some stilted approximation. This also gives you good practice in learning the Japanese idiomatic phrases. Japanese anime are good for this, because I find that often the English does not give you what they have really said.

Anyway, have fun with your practice, and when you come across something intriguing please do share.

トラ

[mmmason8967]

... one of my professors way back when, had us buy a grade school Japanese to Japanese dictionary, and had us look up words first in that. Of course, even for the definitions I had to look up definitions ...

That's a good idea! Some time ago 奈津子先生 recommended getting a Japanese-Japanese dictionary but so far I haven't been able to find one. My nearest city is Cambridge, home to the famous University, so you'd think you'd be able to get one there without too much trouble, but it doesn't seem so.

I'd never thought about a children's dictionary, though. It turns out that I can get hold of one called 例解学習国語辞典 easily. The comments on Amazon JP suggest that it's reasonably well-known and well thought of, so it looks promising.

I am constantly trying to go directly into Japanese, but I know my biggest problem is because I can be pretty eloquent in English, I WANT to be eloquent in Japanese too.

Me too. At the moment I don't think I could hold my own with a typical four-year-old, though.

I love translating from Japanese into English, because I challenge myself to put the words in REAL English rather than some stilted approximation. This also gives you good practice in learning the Japanese idiomatic phrases. Japanese anime are good for this, because I find that often the English does not give you what they have really said.

As I understand more and more of what I hear, it's a constant surprise how different the subtitles so often are to the Japanese dialogue. Sometimes you can see why the changes are made but quite often it just seems to be arbitrary.

いただきます, unsurprisingly, causes a problem for the subtitlers. The oddest change I've seen was in a Pokémon episode when Ash and friends sit down to a hug plate of sushi: the いたただきます becomes "Yummy! Doughnuts!"

Anyway, have fun with your practice, and when you come across something intriguing please do share.

Actually, I haven't said anything about the the article I've been reading. It's on a web page called 「知ってる」と「分かってる」の違いは何ですか which is linked to from a FAQ-style page called にほんごの質問. The home page is http://homepage3.nifty.com/recipe_okiba/nifongo/index.html.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

Actually, one-language dictionaries are always the best. I still have my english-english dictionary somewhere around. It gave me a good part of grievance, because as Tora-san says, you have to look up the definitions to the definitions.
But it had some nice pictures.
Unfortunalety, I've already been looking for a japanese-japanese dictionary, but couldn't find one yet neither.

Best, Kurokuma

[Tracel]

お早うございます。

I got my dictionaries when I was living in Japan, but I googled around using my own dictionary as reference and came up with a few locations you may be able to get a Japanese to Japanese dictionary online. First, is if you have an i-pad or phone; Apple definitely has an app for everything:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sanseidos-gendai-shin-kokugo/id670262188?mt=8

Next I typed in:
”shogaku kokugo jiten”
which gives you a few that you can get from Amazon, but you can't check them out to see if this is the correct format or not.

A little more searching got me the same dictionary that I have here, although mine is the fifth edition:

http://www.amazon.com/Gakushu-Edition-Japanese-Dictionary-Examples/dp/4095017082

The reason I like this dictionary is that it has furigana for the kanji in the definitions. I have a huge, gorgeous J-J dictionary that has everything in it, but does not use furigana because it assumes you know it already. VERY slow going when looking anything up with that one.

Good luck.

トラ

[mmmason8967]

お早うございます。

こんばんは。　ここで今七時です。

I don't have any Apple products, but...

A little more searching got me the same dictionary that I have here, although mine is the fifth edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Gakushu-Edition-Japanese-Dictionary-Examples/dp/4095017082

Yes! That's the 例解学習国語辞典 that I mentioned earlier! So you've got it and you like it? That's really good to know: it's easy to get hold of in the UK, so I think you can probably guess what I'll be telling my wife I want for Christmas.

マイケル

[Tracel]

Ha ha.

Yes! That's the 例解学習国語辞典 that I mentioned earlier! So you've got it and you like it? That's really good to know: it's easy to get hold of in the UK, so I think you can probably guess what I'll be telling my wife I want for Christmas.

I just clicked on your link. I know, I am very slow. Your link is in Japanese though, which is interesting.　Hope you have been a good boy, so that you don't just get coal！

Take care,
トラ

[community.japanese]

マイケルさん、Teabag さん、トラさん、くろくまさん、
sorry for late participation, and thank you very much for a very interesting thread here!!

I read somewhere that one of the most difficult jobs is an interpreter doing simultaneous translation--that is, as you hear what someone is saying in one language, you repeat it in another language while the other person is talking. Apparently it is so difficult that even the best interpreters can only do simultaneous translation for about fifteen minutes at a stretch. It occurred to me that that's how I try to speak Japanese: I think of what I'm going to say in English and then I try to do simultaneous translation into Japanese and, of course, it doesn't work at all well.

As far as I'm concerned, the max for simulatneous translation (for the best quality) is actually about 5 minutes and
consecutive translation is 15-20 minutes. This is how much "converting and dealing with languages" takes concentration
and can be difficult. I can personally assure you that 10-minute consecutive translation under pressure takes
the energy from entire body
My point being, handling two or more languages is like switches on braker box where "off" (switch is down) situation
is when you're using your mother tongue and "on" (the switch is up) is when you're using foreign language(s).
In order to cut the electricity, you just give a bit of pressure (just like "a trigger") to let it "fall" and switch off.
This doesn't take much effort to do that, while having the electricity back on (i.e. lifting the switch up)
takes more power (because you'll feel the switch is pretty heavy).
This is like changing the language mode in your brain. Going back to the mother tongue doen't take much effort to
do that, but making your brain think in foreign language takes more effort.

I haven't done this for a while, but one of my professors way back when, had us buy a grade school Japanese to Japanese dictionary, and had us look up words first in that. Of course, even for the definitions I had to look up definitions, but it gave us a lot more reading practice. Maybe, I will start doing that again.

Like Michael-san wrote, I once recommended the Japanese-Japanese dictionary, but I totally understand
it's always difficult to use it, in many ways.
I started using English-English dictionary when I was supposed to understand enough, but no.....when I check
one word, one or more words used to explain was "unknown" for me, so I had to check that word again....
then another one....and another one...
I love using children's books or dictionaries for this reason

Before closing my comment, I'd like to give a bit of my insights to the original "problem":
そのため、「考えればわかります。」とはいえても「＊考えれば知ります。」とはいえません。
The part とはいえても can be broken down into と　は　いえ　ても and this sentence itself can be
changed to two sentences:
「考えればわかります」と（は）いえます。
「考えれば知ります」とはいえません。
The reason why I broke とはいえません part into 4 parts is because ても needs to correspond to negative
ending of this sentence and it has a part of te-form いえて.
As this sentence has "comparision" or "constract", it has the particle は in と（は）いえます in the first half.
Together with Teabag-san's explanation, it'd become a bit easier to understand details of this sentence.
.....hopefully!

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com