Ima, o-mise o deta tokoro nan desu.

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

LI S6 L8:

Ima, o-mise o deta tokoro nan desu.
They've just left the shop.

Why is the particle "o" used after "o-mise" here? Wouldn't "ni" be more logical? "Ni" would make it sound like someone has left FROM the shop, whereas "o" makes it sound as if the shop itself has left.

[mmmason8967]

If the shop itself had left, that would be o-mise ga deta, wouldn't it? But I think deru works like this:-

X wo deru = to leave location X
X ni deru = to leave for location X

マイケル

[mewes6190]

Yes, that's right.

o describes the (direct) object, ga describes the subject of a sentence. So, the subject is the noun, which does the verb, o describes the noun, to which it is done.

So, DOING the leaving would be "me", and I'm doing the leaving TO the shop. Since the subject ("I") is often omitted in japanese sentences, it would be:

(watashi ga) /// o-mise o /// deru.
Subject /// Object /// Verb

Ni often(!) describes, in verb sentences (I like the distinction between "A is B" and "A does B" sentences in Japanese, as I read it in "Basic Connections - Making your Japanese flow" by Kakuko Shoji!) the INDIRECT Object.
I'm not even sure if I could imagine an indirect object in a sentence like this... Maybe "on foot" (Which might sound a bit artificial) like this:

(watashi ga) /// ashi ni /// o-mise o /// deru
I /// by foot /// the store /// leave
Subject /// Ind. Object /// Dir. Object /// Verb

I leave the shop by foot.

Maybe that way it's more clear, why it should be o, not ni!

Best
Kurokuma

[mmmason8967]

I think that deru works in similar way to iku. For example:-

kurokuma-san wa　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta。
Kurokuma left the coffee shop and went to the cinema.

kurokuma-san wa　eigakan e　kissaten o　deta。
Kurokuma left the coffee shop and headed towards the cinema.

kurokuma-san ga　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta。
The one that left the coffee shop and went to the cinema was Kurokuma.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

I think that deru works in similar way to [i]iku[/u]. For example:-

kurokuma-san wa　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta。
Kurokuma left the coffee shop and went to the cinema.

kurokuma-san wa　eigakan e　kissaten o　deta。
Kurokuma left the coffee shop and headed towards the cinema.

kurokuma-san ga　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta。
The one that left the coffee shop and went to the cinema was Kurokuma.

マイケル

Hmm ... but in that case, ni would again be a directional particle, not for describing the indirect object... :/
Or am I seeing something wrong?!?

If I say
Tomodatchi ga　watashi ni　e o　kaimashita。
My Friend bought me the picture.

I thinks it's much clearer. Here, ni describes the indirect object, not a directional, or am I wrong and overlooking something?!?

[mmmason8967]

I thinks it's much clearer. Here, ni describes the indirect object, not a directional, or am I wrong and overlooking something?!?

No, I don't think so. But also I think that there's not really a lot of difference between an indirect object and a directional. To me it seems that ni marks the third party to the verb in cases where the verb can have three parties. So in our examples red marks the first party (subject, topic, main actor), blue marks the second party (direct object) and green marks the third party:-

Tomodatchi ga　watashi ni　e o　kaimashita。

kurokuma-san wa　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta。

I hope this makes sense: I have to leave for work now, so I've got to stop at this point.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

Hmm, apart from the fact that I always try to take topics marked by wa out of the equation (because they always have an additional subject, even if it's omitted) I think we at least mean the same thing, so the "third party" concept fits.

I'm interested, if 奈津子先生 has an opinion on the matter, I'd be interested in her view!

Have a nice workday!

[community.japanese]

Andy-san, マイケルsan,　くろくまsan,
sorry for the late participation here!
Thank you for the discission!

When the particle "o" (を) is used before any place noun (in this case, "shop"),
this doesn't mean the verb is transitive.
It shows the starting point of movement (to somewhere else) OR the passage.

When the used verb involves some travel/movement from one place to another,
these are the basic particles used:
ni: "to" the destination
e (へ): "to" (that) direction
kara: "from" somewhere
o (を): "through/on/via" something/somewhere OR "from" a certain place indicating this is the starting point of travel.

Let me give some quick feedback on some example sentences you discussed too.
1. X wo deru = to leave location X; X ni deru = to leave for location X
This is perfect!!
I just don't think we use too often the expression "...ni deru" and instead we might use the verb "iku".

2. I leave the shop by foot.
It's a very good point, but, just like English expression takes the unique preposition for "on foot" instead of "by",
we also use different particle for "on foot". The most common one would be "aruite" or "aruki de".

3.
A) kurokuma-san wa　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta. (Kurokuma left the coffee shop and went to the cinema.)
B) kurokuma-san wa　eigakan e　kissaten o　deta. (Kurokuma left the coffee shop and headed towards the cinema.)
C) kurokuma-san ga　eigakan ni　kissaten o　deta. (The one that left the coffee shop and went to the cinema was Kurokuma.)
The verb "deru" is actually an intransitive verb with usually indicates the place you left "to go on a journey to the destination" and doesn't take the part "to where". Just like those English sentences, we'd probably need
another verb "to go" if we want to mention also the destination or the reason of leaving the place.
A1) kurokuma-san wa　eigakan ni iku tame ni　kissaten o　deta.
A2) kurokuma-san wa kissaten o dete, eigakan ni mukatta.
I think the sentence A2 is more natural in Japanese. The verb "mukau" is similar to "head to", "off to" or
"bound to (if it's transportation or something).
Now I believe all of you smart experts can work on the sentences B and C

When the verb involves movement/transfer from one place to another,
particle could seem to be a bit more complicated simply because the usage might be more different than
normal action verbs. I'd like to add one more sentence to clarify another particle "o" function: passage.
ex. 私は橋を渡ります。Watashi wa hashi o watari masu. (I go across the bridge.)
Here, "watashi" will walk "on" the bridge and yet the particle used is "o".
This is because the particle "o" can also indicates the "passage" of travel.


Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

When the particle "o" (を) is used before any place noun (in this case, "shop"), this doesn't mean the verb is transitive. It shows the starting point of movement (to somewhere else) OR the passage.

Over the last couple of weeks I have been coming across expressions using を, but when I check the dictionary, the verb turns out to be intransitive. I have been wondering why there is a "direct object" if the verb is intransitive. And now I know

I'd like to add one more sentence to clarify another particle "o" function: passage. ex. 私は橋を渡ります。Watashi wa hashi o watari masu. (I go across the bridge.) Here, "watashi" will walk "on" the bridge and yet the particle used is "o". This is because the particle "o" can also indicates the "passage" of travel.

So that explains why these intransitive verbs are being used with を:-

階段を上る　　⇒　kaidan o noboru　⇒　go upstairs
階段を下りる　⇒　kaidan o oriru　　⇒　go downstairs
車道を渡る　　⇒　shadou o wataru　⇒　cross the road

あろがとうございました。

マイケル

[mewes6190]

Oh man, I'll never get all those particles right ...
It shouldn't be called "japanese", but "particlese".

Thanks for the insights, Natsuko-sensei! (I haven't gotten IME installed on this computer, so, good old romaji today! )

Best
Kurokuma

[community.japanese]

マイケルさん、くろくまさん、

I'd like to add one more sentence to clarify another particle "o" function: passage. ex. 私は橋を渡ります。Watashi wa hashi o watari masu. (I go across the bridge.) Here, "watashi" will walk "on" the bridge and yet the particle used is "o". This is because the particle "o" can also indicates the "passage" of travel.

So that explains why these intransitive verbs are being used with を:-

階段を上る　　⇒　kaidan o noboru　⇒　go upstairs
階段を下りる　⇒　kaidan o oriru　　⇒　go downstairs
車道を渡る　　⇒　shadou o wataru　⇒　cross the road

Exactly! Glad I could solve your problems

Kurokuma-san, particles for Japanese learners are like prepositions for English learners
I completely understand what you mean! There are some Japanese natives who use wrong particles
and/or expressions especially lately, so you don't have to worry too much! You'd be still better and more
correct than those Japanese people

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com