くろくまからの手紙 - Letters from Kurokuma

[mmmason8967]

All your definitions are correct (at least, as far as I know). I think you should have used kudaseru instead of itadaku because...

You are saying "thank you" to me for my reply. The verb itadaku is, as you said, a humble form, so you can only use it to talk about what you did. Obviously you don't want to thank me for what you did, you want to think me for what I did. For what I did, you need kudasaru.

Another way to look at it is that, ignoring all the politeness, kudaseru means "give" and itadaku means "take", so what you wrote means (approximately) "thank you for taking your reply" or (slightly more accurately) "thank you for me taking your reply".

I'm pretty confident I'm right on this one (this does not happen often). However, I know for sure that native speakers use itadaku when they should use kudaseru. I'm also pretty sure that this causes older native speakers to wonder what's wrong with young people these days.

マイケル

[Tracel]

くろくまさん、

敬語はすごく複雑なテーマだと思います。私は上手に敬語を使えないけど、くろくまさんの質問を答えてみましょう。(I think that keigo is a very complex topic. I cannot use Keigo very well, but I will try to answer your question)。

Here is a very simplified explanation. 敬語　changes depending on one's point of view. So it depends if you are wanting to talk about yourself by being humble, or you want to talk about someone else whom you respect. The verbs 「くれる」 and 「もらう」 also depend on your point of view. Basically, 「くれる」 means 'to give to me' and 「もらう」 means 'to receive from you'.

I hope that my Japanese is correct below, but maybe one of the JapanesePod teachers can help us out here too. So with your sentence:

マイケルさん、
こんにちは。お返事とフォーラムヘ迎接いただきまして、ありがとうございました。
I thank you very much for your answer and the greeting to the forum.

マイケルさん is giving you a reply and a greeting.　Because you are talking about what he is doing, you would need the "respect" form for "give"、　「くれる」　Becomes　「くださる」。

お返事とフォーラムへの大歓迎を下さって、ありがとうございます。
Thank you for (giving me) your reply and warm welcome to the forum.　（Note: I couldn't find your word 迎接 so I replaced it with 大歓迎(だいかんげい）which means 'warm welcome'.)

Now you could probably also use 「もらう」 here with a slightly different emphasis.　「もらう」　Is talking about yourself (I am receiving something) and would become the "humble" form when using 敬語, which is 「いただく」。But I am really not to sure about my Japanese here.

***マイケルさまからお返事とフォーラムへの大歓迎をいただいて、嬉しかったです。***
I was happy to receive Micheal's reply and warm welcome to the forum.

Hopefully I haven't just given you a whole pile of nonsense. I also want to learn how to better use keigo, so hopefully 奈津子先生　will also answer your questions and of course correct my information if I have messed up.

お元気で、
トラ

[Tracel]

Just saw マイケルさん's reply. I am pretty sure that マイケルさん is correct here and with a much clearer explanation of the topic too. Thank you マイケルさん.

[mewes6190]

マイケルさん、トラさん、
おはよう。
Thank you both for your explanations!
I would like to debate a bit further, if you don't mind and would like to help me out a bit further. Not to contradict you, but for me to understand better.
Actually, トラさんs explanation is a lot closer to my workbooks which I looked up again.

They handle three forms: to receive (もらう), I give to you (あげる) and you give to me (くれる) respectively their 敬語 counterparts for deeds (not objects, which run without the て): ていただく, てさしあげる and てください.

Frankly, the part I never get: what's the difference between もらう / ていただく and くれる / てください?
They both mean, well, a "motion" from you to me, changing only the subject of the sentence: 私があなたにもらいます vs. 私にあなたがくれります, to put it in a simple sample-sentence. (At least that's how I understood these verbs)

So, to me it looks like a simple matter of grammatical semantics and more or less interchangeable.
You're right, マイケルさん, that ていただく seems to be the word of choice for native speakers, at least it's used in my workbook sample-dialogue.

So, when to use もらう and when くれる? I think it boils down to this question.

Only thing I could think about is, that it is perceived more polite to make the other person the subject of the sentence and not oneself. It's the only difference I can make out right now. Which would rise the question, why japanese native speakers use it the other way around.

Maybe you two (or someone else) know more about that, or otherwise one of the teachers has an explanation. I would like to hear it.
敬語 is a fascinating, even though difficult topic in my opinion.

くろくま

[mmmason8967]

Frankly, the part I never get: what's the difference between もらう / ていただく and くれる / てください?
They both mean, well, a "motion" from you to me, changing only the subject of the sentence: 私があなたにもらいます vs. 私にあなたがくれります, to put it in a simple sample-sentence. (At least that's how I understood these verbs)

That's how I understand it too. One nice thing about keigo verbs is that they're either honorific or humble, which makes it easy to insert the correct pronouns when you translate a minimal Japanese sentence into English:-

Kudasaimashita　⇒　Someone-respected gave it to me.

Itadakimashita　⇒　I got/took it from someone-respected.

In an actual conversation we would know who "someone respected" is from the context.

Only thing I could think about is, that it is perceived more polite to make the other person the subject of the sentence and not oneself.

I think the inclusion of 「ありがとう」 restricts your choice: you are thanking the person for his/her action. You can describe the situation using either kudasaru or itadaku but you can only describe the other person's action using kudasaru.

Suppose I pay you some money. You can describe the situation in terms of what I did ("paying me") or what you did ("being paid"). The choice is yours. But if you include "thank you", only one of those choices makes sense. You are not going to say "thank you for being paid".

マイケル

[mewes6190]

That actually makes sense!
Thank you!

I'm also just diving into that "humbeling yourself" or "honoring the other person" part of Keigo.

So, my workbook threw me off by using it wrong. I wondered a bit about it, but in the end, some things seem still pretty alien to me in japanese, so I thought, "well, maybe it's me saying 'thank you, for (you) letting me receive your answer and greeting'".
Maybe, I thought, it is understood, that the fact, that the "giver" gives you something, is an act of honoring you. So, by you giving me your answer and greeting, I receive your honoring, and thanked you for that.

I know, it sounds a bit around-the-corner, but japanese does that from time to time for my ear. I thought it possible.

Your last explanation sounds a lot more logical though.
I still wonder, why japanese native speakers switch it. How rude!

[Tracel]

Kurokuma-san,

If you want to hear some keigo in action, listen to the Lower Intermediate - Postcards episodes. Gorgeous Japanese written between two people in postcards. It is pretty funny too, as many of the Japanese Pod episodes are. The level of Japanese is pretty high in these, but it gives you a great snapshot of what keigo really sounds like, at least in writing.

tora

[mewes6190]

Tora-san,

that's a great idea, thank you. I'll keep that in mind, right now I still have to get deeper into keigo (its pretty lexical in it's vocab, so I have to learn a bit. Right now I'm struggeling with nasaru, ossharu, meshiageru vs, itasu, itadaku, oru and the rest.) But I'll definately listen into it, when I get the vocab.

Still working on your answer!

Best,
Kurokuma

[mmmason8967]

I know, it sounds a bit around-the-corner, but japanese does that from time to time for my ear. I thought it possible.

I know exactly what you mean. That was my thinking a few months ago when I tried out a keigo sentence using itadaku on 奈津子先生. I've really just been repeating the explanation that she gave to me.

I felt a lot more comfortable with the kudasaru version because it makes sense and isn't difficult to understand whereas the itadaku version definitely seemed, as you very accurately put it, "a bit around-the-corner".

Your last explanation sounds a lot more logical though. I still wonder, why japanese native speakers switch it. How rude!

I don't know but I'd guess it has something to do with the way you learn your own language, which is by hearing words being used and inferring the meaning. The same kind of thing happens in English: one widely misunderstood word is "enormity". You might hear it in something like "the enormity of Nazi war crimes" and infer that it means "immense size" because it sounds a lot like "enormous". As there's no noun form of "enormous" (i.e. something that means "enormousness"), you might conclude that "enormity" is the noun form of "enormous", which would make it a very useful word. And so you could easily end up talking about "the enormity of Nelson Mandela's achievements" or "the enormity of Mother Theresa's compassion", unaware that enormity actually means "immense wickedness".

I guess a similar thing could happen if you're Japanese and a bit hazy about exactly what itadaku means, although you know it has a polite and formal feel to it. Possibly, too, kudasaru doesn't have the same feel because in its kudasai form it's a very common expression that everyone uses all the time. So when you want to say something a little bit special, itadaku looks like it'll be a good choice.

But I'm just guessing.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

マイケルさん、
those are pretty good points.
It reminded me of this list I fund some weeks ago: http://hellogiggles.com/10-words-that-y ... n-misusing
(It features "enormity" too. )
In german there's also a lot of cases of misused words. Interestingly, most of these words derive from other languages (a lot from English).
Anyway, I would suspect a workbook to teach the right way. On the other hand, it should also teach the way, people actually use a language... Well, it's a sensitive topic I guess.

くろくま

[mewes6190]

トラさん、
おはよう。
お返事下さって、ありがとうございました。「トラ」はよくて渾名ですね。「roar!」
映画の「トラ、トラ、トラ」を知ていますか。
カナダは素晴らしい国のようです。後日にそこへ旅行したいです。風景が目も綾なです。
トラさんの趣味は面白くて、楽しいです。野生動物が好きです。ドイツに数える程な野生動物がいます。あれの中で狼が一番面白いでと思います。カナダの野生動物のほうが面白いです。どんな動物を見たことがありますか。
私も言語学を勉強しました。ドイツごの言語学を勉強しました。
ドイツごと英語と日本語を話すことができます。でも、もっと言語を話すできるほしいです。不死のをすると皆言語を勉強します。言語を大好きですよ。
でも、時間がありません。
今、日本語を書きますはもう強いです。

くろくま


Good Morning Tora,
I thank you for your answer. „Tora“ is a nice nickname. Roar!
Do you know the movie „Tora, Tora, Tora!“?
Canada must be a beautiful country. One day I would like to go there. The nature and landscapes are really colorful.
Your hobby is interesting and so much fun. I like wild animals. In Germany, there aren‘t many wild animals. And of those, wolves are the most interesting I think. Canada‘s wildlife is much more interesting. What kind of　animals did you see yet?
I studied linguistics too. I studied the german language. I speak german, english and japanese. But I would like to speak more languages. If I were immortal, I‘d study all languages. I love languages.
But I don‘t have the time for it.
At the moment, it‘s still hard and tireing to write in Japanese.

Kurokuma

[Tracel]

くろくまさんへ、

お手紙ありがとうございました。まだ八月なのに、この頃(ごろ)カナダには秋(あき)のような天気になりそうです。でも私は一番好き(ずき)な季節(きせつ)は秋だから、これはいいと思います。くろくまさんはドイツに住んでいますか？夫の家族がドイツ家なので、私たちは何回もドイツに行ったことがあります。ドイツは素晴らしい(すばらしい）国だと思いますね。お城（しろ）がたくさんあるし、歴史的（れきしてき）な街もたくさんあるし、すごく面白い国です。
Thank you for your letter. Even though it is August, the weather at the moment in Canada is like Fall. But, that is good because my favorite season is fall. Do you live in Germany, Kurokuma? Because my husband's family is from Germany, we have been to Germany many times. I think that Germany is an amazing country. There are lots of castles, and historical towns, so it is very interesting.

Wild ARCという動物(どうぶつ)病院(びょういん)でボランティア(ぼらんてぃあ)たちがいろいろな動物(どうぶつ)を助ける(たすける)ことができます。私にたぶん一番面白い経験(けいけん)がフクロウを扱った(あつかった)ことでした。すごく美しい鳥ですよ。ざんねんながら、彼は車にはねられました。でも二週間Wild ARCに泊まってから、このフクロウは治りました。ほかの扱っていた動物はラクーンとエーグルとカラスです。
The volunteers at the Wild ARC animal hospital can help various animals. For me, my most interesting experience was working with an owl. They are very beautiful birds. Unfortunately, he was hit by a car. But, after two weeks staying at the Wild ARC, he got better. Other animals that I have worked with are, raccoons, eagles, and crows or ravens.

トラ、トラ、トラという映画を見たことがありません。日本に住んでいるとき私たちの大家（おおや）さんが私の名前を言えなかったので、トラと名付けてしまいました。女の人の名前としてちょっと変ですよ。でも、その時から、ずっと「寅ちゃん」と呼ばれました。
I have not seen the movie Tora, Tora, Tora. When we lived in Japan, because our landlady could not say my name, she ended up naming me Tora. It is a bit of a strange name for a woman.　But, I have been called "Tora-chan" ever since then.

私も、くろくまさんと同じように,この世界の国語の全部勉強したいのです。けれどそんなに時間はないですよね。
I also want to study all of the languages of the world, just like you.　But, I don't have that much time.

じゃあお元気で、

トラ

[mewes6190]

Tora-san,

thanks for your lovely letter! I'd wish I could "just answer" in japanese, sadly it's still a hard and timeconsuming (and sometimes a bit frustrating - I really need to catch up on my vocab...) work, so I can't. But I'll try to answer you in time.

Best
Kurokuma

[Tracel]

くろくまさん、

無理しないでね。Like I said, at the moment I have a bit of time to play with writing in Japanese. However, next week, I start university again, so I also will not have time. Just have fun writing in Japanese when you have the time and want to "play".　As Natsuko-sensei says, treat it like a puzzle, something to have fun with.

トラセル

[mewes6190]

トラさん、
Ah, I wish you the best of fun and luck with your new studies!! I wanted to tell you, but it exceeded my Japanese: Your topic is VERY interesting! Japan has such a rich and great, well, "spiritworld".
It's really fun, to write in japanese, and you were right, it's even more fun to do with others, and you lern very differently, when using japanese instead of just reading.
It's really just a lot more timeconsuming right now. Reading is like ... "ah, that's a wish" or "ah, that's a relative clause" or: "ah, she first did this, then that!"
Writing on the other hand is like: "Hmm, how do I express I first did this and then want to do this?", looking up your workbooks an notes, then looking up the vocab you don't know, and whatever you look up, it doesn't really fit, and then you put it together and you're still not sure if you got it right.
So yeah, the puzzle-metaphor is quite fitting. Good, that I like puzzling (seriously, I got about ten of them hanging on my walls! )
But it's fun and I'm getting better a little bit each day, which is very rewarding, and that's what counts.
It's still a game for me, and a fun one.
I can remember, when reading took that much time, 'cause I didn't even know where a word ended... Right now, I'm reading pretty good, just have to look up unknown vocab. So I'm sure my writing will get more fluid too in no time!

Just keep swimming, uh, writing!

Have a great (last ) carefree weekend!

くろくま