-te kureru and -te ageru

[danfernold7261]

Konnichiha.

I´m looking (as suggested) on the -te form of japanese verbs. and I have a question about -te kureru and -te ageru

according to "Wiki" -te kureru is used when someone did you a favour, (is it like "can you do this for me?")
and -te ageru, is used when doing someone a favour

Please give me some examples o kudasai

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

[mmmason8967]

I think it works something like this...

One way of looking at the world is as a series of concentric circles. I am in the innermost circle in the middle, my family is in the circle around me, my friends and colleagues are in a circle around that, and the rest of the world is in the outermost circle.

Both kureru and ageru mean "to give". The difference is that with ageru the direction of giving is from an inner circle to a more outer circle whilst with kureru the direction of giving is from an outer circle to a more inner circle--towards the middle. That means that when I give, I use ageru, and when I receive, I use kureru for what the other person does. But note that kureru means "give (to me)", not "I receive (from)":-

となりの山田さんがこのカツラをくれました。
Tonari no Yamada san ga kono katsura wo kuremashita.
My neighbour, Mr Yamada, gave me this wig.

As you said, you can give, or be given, actions by using ~te ageru and ~te kureru, and as I understand it, there's a strong implication that the action is a favour.

マイケル

[community.japanese]

Dan-san, マイケルsan,
thank you very much for the perfect explanation, マイケルsan!!

One way of looking at the world is as a series of concentric circles. I am in the innermost circle in the middle, my family is in the circle around me, my friends and colleagues are in a circle around that, and the rest of the world is in the outermost circle.

This is exactly the idea!
Dan-san, I think Michael-san explained better than I could ever do, in the simpler way.

All "morau", "kureru" and "ageru" involve the "point of view" which might not correspond with English,
so English translation doesn't really help.
These "te-kureru", "te-ageru" and "te-morau" are combinations of te-form of verbs and expressions of
giving and receiving.
So, in order to understand the usage of those, you need to understand first simple "ageru", "morau"
and "kureru" verbs.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

I get it with kureru and ageru

AはBにCをくれる。 there A, the giver is another person (which reallly makes it "was given" or "gave")
while
AはBにCをあげる。 is from the givers perspective.

now applying this with the -te form, Wiki just says kureru: being done a favour, and aageru: doing a favour (in short) without any examples.

What I can assume is that te kurreru is used as "Thanks for giving ne the (as a favour) and te-ageru is like I´m giving you this (as a favour) in other words with the first the reciver feels an obligation to do something in return (either right away or later) and that in the seccond the giver wants something in return (either right away or later)

This is what I can assume, but... without examples on these two, I can´t know for sure. (and sorry but in the example I don´t see -te kureru or -te ageru.

oshiete kudasai

yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

[mmmason8967]

AはBにCをくれる。 there A, the giver is another person (which reallly makes it "was given" or "gave")

The verb is active, not passive, so it doesn't mean "was given". And the tense is non-past, so it means "gives" or "will give", but not "gave".

What I can assume is that te kurreru is used as "Thanks for giving ne the (as a favour) and te-ageru is like I´m giving you this (as a favour) in other words with the first the reciver feels an obligation to do something in return (either right away or later) and that in the seccond the giver wants something in return (either right away or later)

Japanese social convention might mean that this is the case, but I don't think there's anything in the verbs themselves that carry these implications. The only implications are (a) which direction the giving is done (away from the centre or towards the centre) and (b) that some kindness was involved on the giver's part.

This is what I can assume, but... without examples on these two, I can´t know for sure. (and sorry but in the example I don´t see -te kureru or -te ageru.

There is nothing special about ~te kureru or -te ageru. They are just kureru and ageru used with the te-form of a verb instead of a noun.

マイケル

[danfernold7261]

so kureru (in its non past non past form) as it is seen from the reciver´s p.o.v. ) is used when the speaker is talking about something that will be given in the future (either immediate or later)?

as for the -te form with these two verbs: is it in sentences like I will give you something to.... since -te kurete arigatou is thanks for [verb]-ing

yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

p.s. I have listened on the lessons on giving/receiving d.s.

[community.japanese]

Dan-san, マイケルsan,
thank you very much for your continuous helps, マイケルさん

I get it with kureru and ageru

Dan-san, I don't think you got them.
Please pay close attention to Michael-san's explanations. All he wrote are very correct.
It's all about
"(a) which direction the giving is done (away from the centre or towards the centre) and (b) that some kindness was involved on the giver's part."
like Michael-san wrote. This idea of "direction(s) in a circle" is the key point you must understand if you
want to understand all those "giving and receiving" expressions.
Unless you actually understand the concepts, there's absolutely no chance you'd be able to understand
"te ageru" etc. because those are even more complicated.

What I can assume is that te kurreru is used as "Thanks for giving ne the (as a favour) and te-ageru is like I´m giving you this (as a favour) in other words with the first the reciver feels an obligation to do something in return (either right away or later) and that in the seccond the giver wants something in return (either right away or later)

This is what I can assume, but... without examples on these two, I can´t know for sure. (and sorry but in the example I don´t see -te kureru or -te ageru.

Well, please do me a favour: don't assume.
If you go back to Michael-san's explanations, you'll understand that you're missing the most important points.
Without understanding the most important part, no assumptions can be correct.
Everytime someone including me answers to your question, you assume something and make your own theory
rather than taking explanatory words as they are. As a result, of course, your assumption is missing the point.

So, try to understand and practice simple sentences first, and then if/when you actually get the point,
go onto the next level.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Natsuko-sensei

I have both listened on j-pod´s lessons, and also read "thejapanesepage.com"´s pages on giving and reciving, and with this reached the following conclusions:

Ageru - to give (from giver´s perpective)
kureru - to give (from the recivers perspective)
morau - to recieve

Although, while answering another of my posts, I said "please give me example sentences" which was "reibun wo kurete kudasai"

with this.... poof! Is it maybe like this... the direction of the action "give", as in the question "to me from you" the direcrtion is to me (the reciver) from you (the giver) = kureru, and if this, is it the same with from boss to employee, or from elder to youngling (if someone is telling someone else something. i.e. My boss {kureta]gave .... a raise.)

Also, with maggiesensei.com in mind -te ageru: I´m doing this action for [person] -te kureru [person] is doing this action for me, and also, she takes up -te morau, welll... sounds almost like -te kureru, with the difference of the factor of why the giver is doing the action.

し)てもらう(=~(shi)te morau)
to have someone to do a favor for you (i.e. watashi wa musuko ni kuruma o katte moratte iru) I have my son buying me the car. (like he´s doing it for me, for my own benefit but also for someone else (like an employee making someone do something that the eplyee promised his/het boss to do )
し)てくれる(=~(shi)te kureru)
someone does a favor for you (the receiver’s point of view) (i.e. musuko wa watashi ni kuruma o katte kureru) My son is buying me a car. (like, he´s doing it on an own idea.
•~(し)てあげる(=~(shi)te ageru)
to do something (nice) for someone else, to do someone a favor (the speaker’s point of view) (watashi wa musuko ni kuruma o katte agete iru) I´m buying my son a car. (Like, I doing for her.)

I just listened to the introduktion on giving and receiving again, and this thought on -te ageru/kureru/morau popped up. -te ageru I am doing this for [person] direktion g-r, -te kureru [person] is doing this for me direction r-g, and -te morau [person] is doing a thing for me, direction r-g. The difference between the two latter is the reason for the action

What I mean with this is that with this is that with kureru, it's like (He's buying me a car) and with morau it's more like (He's buying me a car (because I asked).


right?


or, wait. take the example: -te ageru: I will do this for [person] or I´m doing this for [person], -te kureru: [person] is doing this for me (where the result of the action is in the future) and -te morau: [person] is doing this for me (when the result of an action is in the vicinty in some way? (i.e. a picture, a newspaper, at a car-dealer.) (abstract/concrete)

hm.... to me, this with -te kureru and -te morau - sounds like, one with a different tone of voice than the other, or in diffrent points in time. (looking back on this post, makes me suspect the first, tone of voice.) although, the easiest thing to do in this case is to stick with -te ageru: I doing this for [person] and -te kureru [person] is doing this for me.

I´ll look on this further, but if you can clear my confusion, please do,

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

P.S. I must be honest right now, and say that when I writing this reply, I´m feeling a little worried, and also a bit scared to continue exploring japanese for now, as any questions that might pop up to me, may cause anyone that answers questions on this site to get annoyed, with me. I can also now say that I have looked on the curiculams for absolute beginner and newblie, and so far I´ve only found two focuses I haven´t grasped. (up to newbie, season 2 lesson 25). As for -naide vs. -nakute, when you say that I have some uses right, it makes me want to find out the others, but from the sites I´ve visited, aside from this one, I just can´t find anything on the subject.

If someone can recommend a site that takes up this, please do so, so I can look this up, until I am able to subscribe here.

[mmmason8967]

You do seem to be very, very close to nailing the sense of these verbs. Your sample sentences seem a bit clunky, though--like they're translated one word at a time from the English. Let's try it the other way round, with me asking you the questions! These sentences all involve washing a car (kuruma is a "car" and arau is "to wash"). I've chosen the past tense because it just seems simpler.

kuruma o aratte ageta.
kuruma o aratte kureta.
kuruma o aratte moratta.

So the only difference between the three sentences is the verb at the end. And, of course, the question is: do you see how the meaning changes?　This isn't intended to be a trick question or anything like that--it is a genuine effort to help you finally nail it.

マイケル

[danfernold7261]

The closest I can come right now is: (if It´s questions, which you said it was, right?)
1. Hai. Watashi wa sono kuruma o aratte ageta. - Yes, I washed the car
2. Eto... Hai. Demo neesan wa watashi ni kuruma o aratte kureta - Eh... Yes, but sis did it for
3. Hai. Ano... Demo... Jitsuwa, watashi wa neesan ni kuruma o aratte moratta. Yes, um... but actually I had it washed by sis.

Sorry, couldn't sleep, without first writting this thought.
The thing is, in no. 1 The direction is from the speaker/cover to the receiver
In 2. Speaker/receiver to giver and 3. receiver. from giver.

Seeing this in inner outer, it's O-i, i-i and i-o, and telefoner it's morau, kureru and ageru.

at least that sounds about right, (now)

That's all for now. Will continue in the morning

Until then

Yoroshiku to ohayou gozaimasu

Dan Fernold

[danfernold7261]

Konnichiha mmmason8967-san.

Now, I´ve realised something about -te ageru, -te kureru and -te morau. Here´s deal gist of it.

Let´s say Michiko-san has been to dinner with Mr. Akimura, and she comes home to her apartment and her roommate says, when Michiko is in the apartment. How was dinner with Mr. Akimura?

with -te kureru the answer is: Akimura-san wa watashi ni ogotte kureta. - Mr Akimura treated me.
with -te morau the answer is: Watashi wa Akimura-san ni ogotte moratta. - I was treated by Mr. Akimura
and with -te ageru the answer is: Watashi wa Akimura-san ni ogotte ageta - I treated Mr. Akimura.

right?

-te kureru: the focus is on giver, Mr. Akimura (the absent party.)
-te morau: the focus is on the receiver. Michiko (the teller.)
-te ageru: the focus is on the giver, Michiko. (the teller.)

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

Oh. and P.S. When I try to log in it says that my account has been disabled, but when I then reload the site after that, I am logged in. Why is that? D.S.

[mmmason8967]

The closest I can come right now is: (if It´s questions, which you said it was, right?)

Um … no, I didn't. What I said was:-

Let's try it the other way round, with me asking you the questions!

What I meant was that you normally ask the questions and I (or someone) tries to answer them, so this time we'd change places and I'd pose a question and you can try and answer it. The actual question was:-

do you see how the meaning changes?

But, anyway, you treated the sentences I wrote as questions. The first problem is that they aren't questions and they don't look like questions.

The second problem is that these verbs are directional. If the question is "Did you wash the car for me?" the answer isn’t likely to be "Yes, you washed the car for me".

マイケル