Song phrase ... translation help?

[PhoenixKarenee]

Hajimemashite. Karen desu. As a new student of Japanese, I'm jumping into these forums with a question for someone significantly more advanced than I am.

I'm breaking down the lyrics to one of my favorite Japanese songs (Love Yourself) using various online dictionaries. I don't want to rely on other translations to think for me, but am studying each word so I will understand why they are used in the positions in which they are placed, what the root verbs are, and so forth.

Here is the Kanji of the first phrase: 季節はまた巡り めぐるめく街

I've identified: Seasons (#) again go round ...

but mekurumeku machi doesn't register on the sites I've been using. I'm hoping for translation advice from someone who understands the source of the phrase, since guesses or Americanized thinking won't help me learn cultural and linguistic structures (if there are any).

Your assistance is much appreciated. Thanks!

BTW, This is the source I used for the lyrics. http://www.jpopasia.com/lyrics/36472/kat-tun/love-yourself-kimi-ga-kirai-na-kimi-ga-suki.html[/url]

[mmmason8967]

I'm a beginner too, so the lyrics are a bit beyond me. However, I can tell you that on the page you linked to, the kanji version doesn't exactly match the romaji version. The kanji version says:-

Kisetsu wa mata meguri meguru meku machi
Daremo kimi no koto o ki ni tomezu mawaru

There's no guarantee that the kanji version is right simply because it's kanji. Someone presumably wrote down what they thought they heard, and they could have misheard.

The romaji version says mekurumeku, which is 目眩く, a verb that means to dazzle or to blind. That matches the English translation on the web page. On the other hand meguri meguru means "circles around", or at least I think it does. That would fit with the seasons but it leaves meku machi hanging around at the end of the line.

I don't know if any of that helps at all…

マイケル

[ericf]

I think it's your second explanation. 巡りめぐる = going round and round. And I don't know what めくまち is either.

[PhoenixKarenee]

Thanks, you two!

Hmm. I may have to double-check my source text, and work harder on learning the kanji.

I did find the pre-done English translation of that particular section a little out of place. Circles around makes more sense to me, too, especially given the theme of the song. I feel a bit like I'm jumping off the deep end into this, but it's fun, so I'll keep picking it apart until I've got it figured out ... even if it takes a year.

If anyone can clarify the kanji further, I'll be grateful.

[mmmason8967]

I feel a bit like I'm jumping off the deep end into this, but it's fun, so I'll keep picking it apart until I've got it figured out ... even if it takes a year.

Yes, you are jumping off the deep end but, like you say, it's fun. I have a couple of things that are way above my level that I keep going back to. I get stuck constantly, but every now and then something comes up in one of the Jpod lessons that suddenly explains one of the sticking points.

I think you'd get on better if you worked with the Japanese version rather than the romaji. You don't need to know the kanji to do this! But you do need to know hiragana and katakana, If you haven't learned them yet, the good news is that it doesn't take very long to learn them. The trick is: don't try to learn how to read them, learn how to write them. Once you know the kana, it's a lot easier to figure out what kind of word the unknown words you come across are, and you can then use online dictionaries to help you work out what they mean.

Have fun!

マイケル

[natsukoy9313]

Hi everyone!
Very interesting!
Like マイケルsan said, mekurumeku is different from meguru, and the meaning is that something is so shiny that you might get dizzy.
"meguru kisetsu" seems like one clause and then "mekurumeku machi" is another new clause.
Songs are a bit tricky as it doesn't work grammatically...

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

If anyone can clarify the kanji further, I'll be grateful.

Here are a couple of things to get you started.

First, you could have a go at the full title of the song, which is

Love Yourself - 君が嫌いな君が好き
Love Yourself - きみ　が　きらい　な　きみ　が　すき
Love Yourself - Kimi Ga Kirai Na Kimi Ga Suki

Then you could have a go at the second line. It's a little difficult (I think) but way more straightforward than the first line! This is the line broken up so you can see the significant phrases. Each phrase is in kanji, kana and romaji separated with a ★ symbol (the forum doesn't let me create a proper table).

1: 誰も　★　だれも　★　daremo
2: 君のこと　★　きみ　の　こと　★　kimi no koto
3: を　★　を　★　o
4: 気に留めず 　★　き　に　とめず　★　ki ni tomezu
5: 回る　★　まわる　★　mawaru

Phrase 4 is the most difficult bit. It's an expression, so trying to translate one word at a time probably won't work very well. The last word tomezu is a conjugation of the verb tomeru, so you'll need to figure out what happens to the verb when the end changes from ru to zu.

Hope this helps.

マイケル

[mmmason8967]

奈津子さんとエリックさん

I've been listening to the song on YouTube. I am pretty confident the first line is:-

Kisetsu wa mata meguri meguru meku machi
きせつ　は　また　めぐり　めぐる　めく　まち

Maybe it's a play on words, or playing with words? That is, you are supposed to hear the phrases "kisetsu wa mata meguri meguru" and "mekurumeku machi" kind of blended together.

マイケル

[PhoenixKarenee]

Wow, thanks so much マイケルsan and 奈津子san. This really helps a lot.

Now that I'm getting the hang of sorting through the kanji, hirigana, and katakana it's getting easier to know which one goes with each sound so I can break them apart enough use them in my search.

I figure if the whole site is in Japanese, then it's more likely to have accurate Kanji ...? http://www.uta-net.com/song/90282/ This site agrees with the Kanji rather than the romaji I shared above.

But ...

When I LISTEN to the song, they sing "mekurumeku machi" and blinding/dazzling/shiny enough to make dizzy would fit the story theme, since it was written for a drama in which a gloomy girl can't bear to look at anything bright or beautiful --> ヤマトナデシコ七変化 (I think I'll stick with dazzling.)

You're probably right, マイケル, and hearing both will only deepen the song meaning, even if it is unintentional. The dazzling also makes the world seem to spin round? Oh, I love poetry! .... the fact that you're taking the time to listen to the song on YouTube is impressive to me, by the way. I very much appreciate the interest you're taking in my little project.

Machi 街 seems to mean street, not city. Using the kanji certainly helps in finding word meanings. (duh!)

I now have: Seasons (#) again go round. Dazzling street.

Understanding poetic language and writing is a more challenging level of language learning, and it's worth taking the time to process. (Especially because I know I get poetic meanings wrong even in English, sometimes.) One of the reasons I want to learn Japanese is because of the rich poetic heritage.

I'll keep posting my translation progress in this thread, because I'll probably make mistakes as I go along, and group input will definitely help prevent those errors from remaining. One day I'll know enough Japanese to help someone with their pet project ... what a motivating thought!

Thanks for the help, 皆! You're very kind.

[natsukoy9313]

Hieveryone!
I'm always amazed by マイケルsan's brilliant posts!!

Well, the main problem I think is there're too many people who actually can't use Japanese properly nor correctly.
So, the lyrics says 巡るめく, but this expression is actually not correct. It came from the confusion of 巡る and the expression ～べく.

Regarding 街, it does mean city and we often use this 街 for big city whilst we use 町 for small ones or in the addresses.

Good luck on you translation!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

奈津子さん

嘘、嘘！違います。私に赤面をさせました。　:oops:

Is 「嘘、嘘」 acceptable, or is it too casual?

「私に赤面をさせました」 is really just my attempt to translate the English expression into Japanese. Is there a better or more natural way to say it?

マイケル

[natsukoy9313]

マイケルさん、
It's not too casual; you can say うそ、うそ to me
Maybe when you talk with someone you use much polite speech level, that's not appropriate. In such case, you might want to say 嘘です

私に赤面をさせました。
This expression is a bit tricky simply because we don't literally say it in this way. The expression is not wrong, but we would probably say;
私は顔が赤くなってしまいました。/顔が赤くなっちゃいました。(casual)
照れてしまいます。/照れちゃいます。(casual)
Hope this helps!

Natsuko(奈津子)
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

奈津子さん

I started a new thread for my reply because I don't want to hi-jack Karen's topic.

マイケル

[mmmason8967]

Now that I'm getting the hang of sorting through the kanji, hirigana, and katakana it's getting easier to know which one goes with each sound so I can break them apart enough use them in my search.

I found the same thing when I started trying things that were a bit, um, ambitious. Hiragana and katakana felt like a significant obstacle when I started learning Japanese but once I tackled something really difficult, kanji became the obstacle and hiragana and katakana became the means of overcoming that obstacle. And then, when I went back to the proper lessons, the kana didn't seem to be such a big deal after all.

Machi 街 seems to mean street, not city. Using the kanji certainly helps in finding word meanings. (duh!)

Don't forget that the kanji version is only something that somebody wrote from listening to the song. There may a good reason that that person chose 街 rather than 町 but, then again, there might not.

When I LISTEN to the song, they sing "mekurumeku machi" and blinding/dazzling/shiny enough to make dizzy would fit the story theme, since it was written for a drama in which a gloomy girl can't bear to look at anything bright or beautiful --> ヤマトナデシコ七変化 (I think I'll stick with dazzling.)

I'm still pretty sure he says "meguru" … but I wouldn't actually be prepared to bet money on it. Apart from being what you hear, your version seems to make more sense than mine, so you're probably very wise to stick with it.

マイケル

[PhoenixKarenee]

Thank you, マイケルさん, I've taken your advice and am writing through the hirigana a few times a day while speaking the sounds, instead of relying on reading them. Once I have them mastered I'll move on to katakana. (I can't imagine doing both at once ... is that what you did?) I'm picking up a few Kanji here and there, as I encounter them, but disciplined study will wait till I can at least read the kana easily.

Now that I have an authoritative answer on whether 街 means city from 奈津子さん I'm moving on to the next line as you suggested. Your chart is lovely. (I did find street in one of the dictionaries after copy-pasting, so my ability to manage the direct-translation method is shaken. Perhaps this happened because it was "street corner" in combination with another kana, which I don't remember just now. Obviously native speakers trump dictionaries in many ways.) Well, I can't complain if a word has more than one meaning, or if the same sound is written differently for different meanings. After all, English does it too, and somehow I'm fluent. LOL

Although, now that I think of it, their modern music is likely to be written by modern teens ... so perhaps I'll learn slang. *laugh* Ah, well. I'm learning from enough sources that it will balance out in the end.

I love the original meanings of the Japanese phrases, such as "please take care of me" ... which is so much more poetic than the English "nice to meet you". I wish we didn't always substitute our common phrases when translating. Hopefully this progressive study will begin to help me understand how and why they use words the way they do. I love that I now recognize many of the greetings when watching a drama, and can even identify key words here and there.

Now to figure out how to set up my computer so I can type hirigana, etc.... I'm beginning to want to use more words here than I can easily copy-paste.

Would I sign my name, ケレン? I pronounce the first vowel closer to an 'e' than an 'a' I think.