How does learning happen?

[Belton]

In the course of learning Japanese I've often wondered just how the process of learning a language works.
How do we remember?
How do we have access to fluent almost unthinking speech?
Are there ways to learn a language quicker or better or more efficiently?

This isn't specifically about language learning but it has some interesting tips about study.
If you want a short break from Japanese.
The Memory Experience
cramming, chunking, rehearsing...

There are also RealAudio recordings of the radio shows. They might not be available outside UK. I listened to the first show on the radio and it had some interesting points about revision and sleep in forming long term memories. Although it's mixed in with things about childhood memories and other stuff not as relevant to how to learn things.

[metablue]

I did a google search on "adult learning" a while back and turned up lots of interesting information/theories on language acquisition. Some good keywords are "adult learning, adult language acquisition, adult language learning, second language" and so on. There are quite a few studies on how we learn second languages vs first. I'm late for work though, so can't go look them up again and post here.

My favorite way to learn is to listen over and over and over again every day until the words just kind of sink in and get absorbed and networked together. I think the time between learning sessions is really important as there's something going on in there to cement what you learn. Consciously or unconsciously or both. Because the language is fresh in your mind, it gets mingled in with other things that happen while you're not studying and becomes part of your life. Eventually it just starts bubbling up like English does.

I think of it as "composting" (someone else's idea, don't remember who) - all this stuff sinks into the dark, quiet places in your mind and ferments and eventually turns into something fertile and rich.

Also like painting a wall with very thin paint. Every time you listen to or read or speak some Japanese it's like another very thin layer. Even if you miss patches or only paint a tiny bit on any particular day, it doesn't matter. Over time it layers up into a nice thick perfect coat of paint.

I think an important part of that analogy is that you have to wait for each layer to dry before starting the next, which the research bears out. The longer you wait between two study sessions, the more you'll remember after the second, to a point. I've found that if I try to memorize something, then wait until I've nearly forgotten it, then try to dredge it back up out of my memory, that "dredging" really fixes it in my memory. The harder it is to retrieve, the more likely I am to remember it for longer.

Ok, that's all a bit strange-sounding, but oh well ^^ It'd be good to go read some studies and see if those ways of thinking about it have any basis in fact.

Now I'm really late again.

[Belton]

I think repetition is important and maybe active repetition and rehearsal being more effective than passive activity.

Apparently it's during sleep that short term memories get transferred into long term memory. Another reason for beauty sleep.

The thing about intervals between learning is interesting. On the program I was talking about one of the experts said it should be: revise after one day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then 1 term.
There's also the idea that little and often or regular study is better than a long session once a week.

Another thing I came across is the myth of children easily acquiring a second language.

Seemingly there's a trend in the UK for middle class families to sell up and move to a better life in France or Spain or Greece. (somewhere sunnier with cheaper house prices basically) At least according to TV. I was watching a program about this and felt so sorry for the children.
The youngest was ok, at 4 or so he readily adapted to new friends and they could communicate without much trouble.
The pre -teen daughter was completely uprooted and adrift in a French comprehensive and had a really hard time with learning French.
A psychologist specialising in this problem was saying it takes about 5 years in the target culture to become fluent. It makes me wonder how long outside a target culture.

[niedec]

Well, my best guess is that learning is arranged into two parts: grammar and vocabulary. The grammar gives a rough guide on how the vocabulary is arranged. After that, basic vocabulary is added. Then harder grammar lessons are learned, followed by harder vocab (slang and synonyms). Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Really, I think it's just layers of those two for the language itself. Culture and the like is an entirely different matter, though.

Oh, and if my reasoning seems a little messed up, think about how we FIRST were able to translate languages centuries ago, with no others going before us, and no figurative "Rosetta Stone" to guide us. We probably learned vocabulary, noticed the difference in positioning of nouns and the like, formed a rough idea of grammar, and worked from there.

That seems logical to me, anyway. Are there any other suggestions?

[Alan]

I think an important part of that analogy is that you have to wait for each layer to dry before starting the next, which the research bears out. The longer you wait between two study sessions, the more you'll remember after the second, to a point. I've found that if I try to memorize something, then wait until I've nearly forgotten it, then try to dredge it back up out of my memory, that "dredging" really fixes it in my memory. The harder it is to retrieve, the more likely I am to remember it for longer.

That's also true for me. I think the effort of struggling (successfully) to locate that elusive word builds new neural connections. I visualise my memory as a library, with a badly maintained index and cross-reference. It's getting the cross-referencing bit to work properly thats difficult. Tackling a learning problem from several different directions seems to help build a richer set of cross-reference connections. Sadly my brain's a bit untidy and the index's and cross-references badly maintained.

I'm thinking about the learning process quite a bit at the moment, due to the huge effort required to become literate. Usually when learning vocab or the hiragana/katakana, I've mostly used brute force repetition (flash cards, writing out) augmented by making pictorial or mnemonic connections, where I was having major difficulties remembering words/kana. For instance I kept muddling わ and ね. I solved this by thinking of 'ne' as 'knee' and that the ね kana had knees, while わ did not.

There have been some recent posts in this forum about the Heisig method, which uses mnemonics to learn the radicals in each kanj and link them to one of the meanings. This does not of course teach you how to use the kanji and perhaps is more akin to the head-start that chinese have when learning japanese. It is still necessary to go back and learn the ON & kun pronounciations and usage of kanji in compounds. I gather people use a variety of methods based on Chaining, to learn those.

This is all well and good, but those methods are really a crutch to learn the knowledge. Perhaps a bit like the scaffolding used when putting up a building. It would take a long time and perhaps be impossible to build more than a floor or two without the scaffolding, but the scaffolding itself isn't part of the desired end product & is a bit unsightly during the building process. However to learn all those kanji... maybe that is the way to go. It's still a huge amount of work, and in my view doesn't so much replace learning 'kanji in context', but possibly give a running start. I'm still trying to get my head round this, trying to decide whether its the way to go.

Returning to safer ground, attempting to use the language in real time helps me a lot, probably as the opportunities to do so are limited and I am therefore under-practiced. I think writing in Japanese and posting to the forum helps a bit, but doesn't quite have the speed of spoken speech (particularly when I have to stop to look up kanji). I really ought to participate in Belton's example thread, as that should help. Listening comprehension also helps, but for me, doesn't get the words and grammar constructions into my active vocabulary.

[Belton]

niedec-san:

Well, my best guess is that learning is arranged into two parts: grammar and vocabulary.

Being immersed in the target language is similar to how children get their mother tongue. I think concrete nouns come first. point and say dog -- いぬ　and work from there. Grammar is at a higher level and irregular grammar higher still. And words for concepts and ideas are at a higher level than words for things.

(I think it was the Jesuits who wrote the first Japanese grammars and dictionaries for European use. I might be wrong. But whoever did, did it to speed up this process.)

But I don't think adults go through this process when learning a language. We haven't the time and have a better ability to deal with complex ideas.

Culture and the like is an entirely different matter, though.

And important. I can probably make grammatically correct statements in a language but without a cultural understanding it might be hard to be understood or communicate properly.

Another question I think of here is why computers can't translate languages. I think it's this cultural aspect if anything. words and grammar rules aren't enough.

Alan-san:
I think your experience with learning kana is funny. I had the same sort of problems and children learning to write English have similar problems.
I still have problems with katakana because I use it less often and the shapes are much more similar to each other.

Heisig method.
This sounds attractive. But you're right in it being a support shall we say.

It wouldn't be possible but I'd like to take 2 sets of learners. Teach them Japanese using kana only (which for the most part is how Japanese is taught at Beginner levels) Have them study kanji separately, one group uses Heisig the other more traditional methods. Then after a year test them with a written piece using kanji but with the grammar and vocabulary level of their classwork. And have them produce a written piece. I wonder which group would have the better practical use of kanji?

Practice makes perfect as they say.
I seem to learn or retain more from productive tasks (speaking, writing) than receptive tasks (listening, reading).
I don't speak Japanese that often. In class it's people with imperfect Japanese attempting to talk to each other. far from ideal but to attempt it is important. When I talk to Japanese native-speakers I get lost very fast.
I also have to get over trying to be perfect or not make mistakes. I'm sure if I talk more and have my mistakes corrected I'll communicate and eventually get better.
After all, I can understand what foreign people say to me most of the time I just sometimes need a bit more patience and interaction depending on their English.

Having penfriends helps me. It's slower than speech but it's real communication and trying to figure out what is written to me my improved my reading ability.

I really ought to participate in Belton's example thread, as that should help.

Definately, everyone should come over and have a practice