Learning Japanese in Japan frustration

[lizah]

みんなさん、こんにちわ！

I would like to know if anyone has been in a similar situation and can offer some advice.

I have lived in Tokyo for two years now and have struggled to learn Japanese. (believe it or not!) I am just shy of JLPT Level 3 but my kanji is not very good. I work long hours in the English-language section of a Japanese company, and everyone uses only English at work. In my daily life, shop clerks etc. are always very eager to speak English with me, resulting in this weird, confusing language battle where both of us are trying to practice other languages.

It seems like there are only a few situations where people can come to Japan and learn Japanese very well:

1. A full-time course
2. A Japanese boyfriend/girlfriend
3. Live in rural Japan
4. Become a regular at a bar(s)

As I'm very happy with my (English) boyfriend, and my job keeps me from frequenting bars, this makes practicing Japanese very difficult!

I have been listening to JapanesePod and taking a course once a week, but soon I have to stop my class for financial reasons.

Any tips?? It seems like I can't get better at Japanese until I use it, and I can't use it until I get good at it! I am kind of thinking about giving up altogether.

[jkid]

I am living in Tokyo and I have to say I haven't had many opportunities outside of talking with other English speaking friends to speak English. Having said that, there are plenty of people who seem to have the same problem as you're describing.

One thing I can suggest is searching on http://www.meetup.com for a 'meetup group' that shares your interests often, (at least at the events to which I've gone) there are at least a few Japanese people more than willing to let you practice your Japanese.

In regards to Japanese lessons, you might want to look into volunteer lessons provided through your local ward office. They are still not free but they are perhaps cheaper than the current costs for your classes. For example, the Japanese lessons offered in Shinjuku are 2,000 yen a month for a class once a week.

Also, perhaps finding a pen-pal would be another way to practice your Japanese?

I hope that gives you some ideas. If I think of anything else, I'll be sure to post. Good luck!

[Taurus]

2. A Japanese boyfriend/girlfriend

If it's any consolation, this isn't always true. My wife hates it when I try to speak Japanese because it's easier for her just to speak English. And she hates it when I ask for advice about Japanese too because she gets bored trying to explain. Nevertheless, I have still managed to reach some level of Japanese comprehension. I've taken a few JLPT 3 past papers under exam conditions and passed them all - though I don't really think that helps in terms of day-to-day conversation.

Have you checked out the All Japanese All the Timewebsite? It's a bit controversial, and the writing tone seems to rub some people up the wrong way, but there's some very good advice - which I shall attempt to distill here (sorry if any of this is really obvious).

First, if your kanji isn't very good, then I'd really recommend Remembering the Kanji by Heisig, and this website which offers a flashcard system to help. It's basically a system of mnemonics, where you make up stories to help you remember how to write about 2000 of the most commonly used kanji, and how to understand their meaning. You learn them in a specific order that also helps memorise them. It's a little bit controversial because it doesn't teach you how to read the kanji, but once you've learnt them all, you can then start to learn their various readings simply by daily use.

And once you've learned them all, it will open up reams of learning material, because it will help you read anything. You'll find yourself just reading adverts on the train trying to work out what they mean and so on. Or you can start reading manga on your train to work, which brings us on to the next bit of advice, which is the use of spaced repetition flashcard software, such as Anki.

Basically, instead of learning vocab and grammar separately, you should put Japanese sentences into your flashcards. That way you'll learn the vocab and the grammar at the same time, and the flashcard software will test you whenever it thinks you're about to forget until the sentences sink in to your long-term memory.

For example, here's one of my flashcards:

ここではカードで払ってもかまいません。ここではカードではらってもかまいません。
here-in as for card-with pay it-doesn't-matter
You can pay by card here.
Verb て-form もかまわない　means 'it doesn't matter if-'

So when I test myself, I test myself to see if I understand the sentence in bold.

But the key part of this guy's advice is that you do this for thousands and thousands of sentences. So instead of knowing abstract grammar rules (eg. that you form volitional Group I verbs by replacing the last sound of the -masu form with ou), and then taking ten minutes to try to use those rules in the middle of a conversation, you just learn sentences (eg. いっしょに飲もう (issho ni nomou) means 'let's have a drink', or 休もう (yasumou) means 'let's have a rest') and intuit the grammar rules (just as you would in English, in fact. As an aside: at my wedding the other week my wife's friends were looking at my JLPT3 Grammar guide and all of them said that they found it really difficult to understand because they're used to intuiting grammar).

And the way you find the sentences to put in your flashcards is to read or watch or listen to actual Japanese. When you come across a sentence that you don't understand, you use a dictionary and a grammar dictionary to work out what it means, and then you enter it into your flashcards.

Which brings us on to the final part of the guy's advice: you should really try to listen and watch and read Japanese all the time. You mention that this is the most difficult bit for you, but if you're in Japan then you should be able to watch Japanese TV, or listen to the radio in the evenings. Obviously it will be difficult at first, but I think there are plenty of shows that are entertaining enough even if you only barely understand them (eg. Hajimete no Otsukai, where tiny kids go off on their own to do their mum's shopping, or a lot of the game shows and comedies). Can you listen to your ipod at work? Perhaps you could listen to Japanese music, or just have Japanese podcasts or stories playing in the background while you work. And maybe you could use your journey to work to read read manga, or books like the Japanese Graded Reader series. What about the back of cooking packets? If you're making a curry from a packet it's got fairly simple instructions, accompanied by diagrams, and I got quite a kick out of the first one that I managed to comprehend.

Whatever you do, don't give up. You might be making slower progress than you want to, but I bet you're making progress. I still think my Japanese is rubbish, but it is definitely less rubbish than when I started!

[Javizy]

Similar to jkid's idea, it might be worth looking online for a language exchange partner. When searching myself, I have often seen people saying they want someone to meet with in Tokyo to practice English, and are willing to help with Japanese. It's not even necessary to find somebody to meet up with, since you can just use Skype, which may be more convenient for your seemingly hectic schedule, and it's definitely less intimidating when your conversational skills still leave a lot to be desired.

Another good tool is shadowing, which basically involves mimicking recordings of native speakers. This will train your overall accent, and help you develop natural intonation, as well as fluently remembering the material you choose to repeat. Check out this book that will help you get into it (the website has a more in-depth explanation). This is something you can do while ironing your shirt, which is again good for your hectic schedule.

Other than that, like Taurus is suggesting, maybe you should consider changing your study methods to suit you better, rather than relying on the rigidity of a language course. Don't feel that you have to follow anything religiously, though; pick and choose the things that are effective for you and keep you motivated. However, if you're not utilising flashcards in some way, then I would definitely look into Anki, or some other SRS variant. The progress you can make with these things is rapid.

I really recommend the whole sentence thing, but I think in the case of grammar, it really doesn't hurt to learn it in advance, and perhaps make the flashcards while you're learning it. I'd recommend the series of dictionaries by The Japan Times, beginning with A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar. To give yourself some structure the 完全マスター 日本語能力試験 (Kanzen Master Japanese Proficiency Test) series is something I was introduced to recently, and I've been finding it really useful.

[Taurus]

I'd also recommend the Kanzen Master series - in fact, I'm just going through copying all of the sample sentences from the JLPT 3 book into my Anki deck.

The other thing that I wanted to add is that these methods are slightly self-sustaining. Going through Heisig, I have found that as I learned more and more kanji, it became in a reward in itself just to see them in use, even if I didn't know how to read them. That became a bit of a spur to learn more. Then, by reading manga or books that use furigana, or by using my Anki deck to learn kanji readings, every time I spot a kanji that I can read it gives me a little burst of pleasure that again becomes a bit of a spur to learn more. And I also find that as my Anki deck grows bigger (and my repository of sentences gets larger), every bit of Japanese that I can understand on the internet, or in a movie, or on a curry packet(!), also gives my ego a bit of a boost and makes me more inclined to try to learn the stuff that I don't understand.

So it's definitely something I'd recommend if you're in a bit of a rut.

[mslozada]

I am a Filipino living in Europe. Like you, I am also learning japanese, but because my progress was slow, I decided to do a homestay in Japan for 2 months ( 2007 1 month, 2008 1 month = all together, 2 months ). I passed the JLPT lvl 3 last year (2008), so I think you know how good/ bad my japanese is. My school was in Tokyo.

In school:

-American Student (Japanese lvl 2)
An american student in my classroom always complained, that most people in Tokyo (only) spoke english to him. He answerd in japanese but the people replied in english.

-Me (Japanese lvl 3 - 2)
My situation however was different. Although my japanese is not so good as his, all people spoke to me in japanese. After I responded and they new that I was a 外国人, they still talked to me in japanese. 2 people however tried to speak english to me, but I was clever and said: '' I come from Switzerland and can only speak '' Swiss '' german, no english '' (in japanese of course). They had no choice

In short, if I see a white person, he is probably a European or an American and english comes into my mind. If I see an Asian, japanese (korean, if you're in korea or whatever) comes into my mind. English is only a second option. Me, a filipino (for example), will never speak tagalog to a white person no matter how good his tagalog is. This is Asian culture. This is how we asians think. I strongly recommend you to go to places where foreigners are not likely to be expected.

Hope this answers your're question,

[Jessi]

Me, a filipino (for example), will never speak tagalog to a white person no matter how good his tagalog is. This is Asian culture. This is how we asians think. I strongly recommend you to go to places where foreigners are not likely to be expected.

Just a question - what if that person's Tagalog was better than your English? (imagining that your English was at a lower level) Would you still insist on speaking Tagalog to that person? I think a lot of learners have Japanese people trying to explain things in poor English even in cases where the English speaker's Japanese is much better. A friend of mine who has very good Japanese was just recently telling me about a post office clerk who would only use simple English phrases with him, even though he would have been perfectly capable of understanding the explanation in Japanese. I think it's things like this that get on Japanese learner's nerves, and I can see why

[gerald_ford]

I don't live in Japan, but i have been there enough I could see it happening. My wife's Japanese, and her parents don't speak English, so I have to speak Japanese to them (poorly) anyways, as well as her friends who don't speak English and don't seem too interested.

A couple suggestions that hopefully might help:

* Japanese TV is a great way to learn the language. Learning to improve listening and speaking actually takes a surprisingly long time, so even if your boyfriend spoke Japanese at home and you watched TV rigourously, it coudl still take quite a while. In any case, there's no better way to improve conversational skill but you have to stick with it long enough for it to sink in.

* As for reading, you really should start challenging yourself more. I use White Rabbit Press kanji cards, and leave them somewhere where I never forget to practice them. Anki works well too, as long as you have Internet access somewhere. Also, White Rabbit has some nice little "graded reader" books that will help you ease into real reading situations.

* If people want to practice English with you, let them get it out of their system. Chances are, they run out of things to say, and quickly get tired. Then you can let loose your Japanese full-force. Such has been my experience.

Best of luck! Believe me, you're in prime situation to learn Japanese, you just need to learn how to learn, and it will all pan out. 2 weeks in Japan for me works wonders, but then I forget it when I get back. *sigh*

[Jessi]

* Japanese TV is a great way to learn the language. Learning to improve listening and speaking actually takes a surprisingly long time, so even if your boyfriend spoke Japanese at home and you watched TV rigourously, it coudl still take quite a while. In any case, there's no better way to improve conversational skill but you have to stick with it long enough for it to sink in.

I really, really agree with this I watched a lot of Japanese TV when I first came to Japan (and watched it online when I was living in the US) and I picked up a lot from it. Now that I am living in Japan I watch it everyday and I find myself learning new words/phrases all the time!

* If people want to practice English with you, let them get it out of their system. Chances are, they run out of things to say, and quickly get tired. Then you can let loose your Japanese full-force. Such has been my experience.

[untmdsprt]

I can feel your frustration. Everywhere I go people insist on speaking English to me even when I start the conversation in Japanese. I have a Japanese boyfriend and he always speaks English to me. The only time when he speaks Japanese to me is when he's studying, and doesn't want to switch or he's tired and Japanese is easier.

Other times when we're out, the waiter/waitress will speak Japanese to him, and switch to English to me. We both speak Japanese to them, so we wonder why this person is switching back and forth. Either they're ignorant and assume I can't understand, or they feel like they need to show off.

I've gotten to the point where I'll ignore the English, unless I really need to understand what they're saying. I wonder what kind of reaction I'll get if I ask "parle vous japonaise"?

As the others have posted, find what you're comfortable with and you'll stick with. I've actually found a good teacher for a one on one conversation. I'll have to find the web link and post it later. She corrects my mistakes, and insists that I speak more and more Japanese. She's very patient, and allows me to finish my sentence before correcting me.

I've also started watching TV although I already know おいしい、かわいい、and すごい. Having 9 channels is ok, but I'm quickly tiring of the game shows, cooking shows, and everyone's favorite the cooking game shows. I also listen to Jpod101, Pimsleur, and the CDs that came with my textbooks.

Have you tried joining a club or other activity where the leader is forced to speak Japanese to everyone? This might be good if you can find something you enjoy.

[lawrense]

I've had a similar experience myself and here are a couple of things that I have found to help:

In addition to watching TV, try translating Japanese movies. The Studio Ghibli series (Tonari no totoro, sen to chihiro no kamikakushi) are good because the Japanese subtitles are almost exact representation of the script. It's a good way to learn because you hear, read and have the visual cues which makes your brain construct a deeper memory than each of the individual stimuli.

Force yourself out of the city every weekend. There is a ton of great stuff to discover in Japan and most non-urbanites don't speak english so you have to use your Japanese. It's a great way to get much more out of you Japanese experience. If you are on a cheap budget - all the better. It will force you to stay in small family owned pensions.

Agree with your work colleagues that you will only speak in English and they will only speak in Japanese (or vice versa). The reason for doing it this way is that it is easier to listen to complex spoken language than to construct, but you will still get the benefit of exposure, rather than one party speaking haltingly and the other not practicing at all.

Goto onsen often. It's not something I ever thought I would do, but I've had more Japanese conversations with naked, sweaty Japanese men in onsens than anywhere else.

[untmdsprt]

Goto onsen often. It's not something I ever thought I would do, but I've had more Japanese conversations with naked, sweaty Japanese men in onsens than anywhere else.

Well there's a mental picture I thought I'd never have. Unfortunately, I haven't met a Japanese woman that wasn't into something other than children, etc. Seems like all my interests are shared by men. Cars, photography, computers!

[jaboyak]

I have a couple of Japanese friends in Arizona, but they won't speak much Japanese to me unless they're drunk and can't think of English too well. hahaha. However, I don't think they mind hearing me attempt, I just think they came here to learn English, so that's what they're trying to do. My girlfriend wishes I spoke more Japanese to her, though... lol. It's hard for me to practice, though, because I hate feeling like an idiot and stumbling over my words. haha. Grrrr.

[untmdsprt]

I have a couple of Japanese friends in Arizona, but they won't speak much Japanese to me unless they're drunk and can't think of English too well. hahaha. However, I don't think they mind hearing me attempt, I just think they came here to learn English, so that's what they're trying to do. My girlfriend wishes I spoke more Japanese to her, though... lol. It's hard for me to practice, though, because I hate feeling like an idiot and stumbling over my words. haha. Grrrr.

Your friends are exactly how me, and possibly the rest of the listeners here feel. I came to Japan to speak Japanese, not English.

Quickly get over feeling like an idiot when you speak because if you don't you'll never do it.

[jaboyak]

Easier said than done, but I'm trying!!! hahaha.