Translation Thread

[Brody]

I'd like to use this thread where a poster could submit a translation he/she is trying and get someone else's opinion on it.

I'll start:

How did this translation turn out?

おそらく修正液で消して、その上からボールペンで書いたのがいけなかったのだろう。

I can't [just] erase them with white-out and write over them with a pen.

I'm somewhat confused with the たのがいけなかっただろう I can guess that だろう makes it hypothetical, along with the use of the past-tense, and I'm guessing the use of いけない is similar to "must not/ should not." But I've never really seen たのがいけなかっただろう and if anyone could give me a definitive answer about it, I'd really appreciate it.

ありがとう。

[Jason]

You have all the basic content, but it's a bit too "hard" and the tense is off. I'd say:

"I probably shouldn't have whited that out and wrote over it with a ballpoint pen."

だろう is the plain, volitional form of the copula (the polite version being でしょう). It's used for uncertainty/conjecture or oftentimes just to soften a sentence.

Yeah, here いけない means along the same lines as だめ.

Let's break that last part apart.

書いたのがいけなかったのだろう。

-書いたの = just nominalizing 書いた.
-が = making "(having) written" the subject along with the previous の
-いけなかった = "should not have..." or "was bad"
-の = this 2nd one is just part of the のだ structure. Well, here it's のだろう but it's basically the same thing.
-だろう = we covered this already.

So litterally, this section says "(having) written was bad." Or in better English taking the context of the sentence in consideration, "shouldn't have wrote"

[Brody]

I agree with you. However, I'm having trouble working it into the context. I'll post it up:

ぼくはあまりに記憶が弱い。だから、自分がすべきことは常にメモ書きにして残しておくようにしている。
　　この記憶の弱さは、ぼくが抱え込んでいる様々な不具合の中のひとつだ。それはつまることろ、ぼくをつくり上げるために用意された設計図にミスがあったのだということ。
　　ほんの１か所。
　　おそらく修正液で消して、その上からボールペンで書いたのがいけなかっただろう。もちろん、ものの例えだが、実際にも似たようなことがあったんだと思う。
　　とにかく文字がかすれたか、あるい下の字が顔を出してしまったのかは知らないけれど、ぼくの頭の中ではあるとても重要な化学物質がでたらめに分泌されるという、かなりでたらめな状況が生じている。
So, here's my idea:

I have a rather weak memory, so I always try to leave myself notes about things I need to do.
This memory problem is one of the many flaws I have. To put it simply, it's like there was a mistake in the blueprints that were prepared to make me.
One of them.
I can't just erase them with white-out and write over them with a pen. of course, it's just an example, but I think it's one that fits the situation.
　At any rate, I'm not sure whether the characters have disappeared or if the characters underneath are showing up, but a very random situation has arisen where some vital chemicals are being randomly secreted in my head.


I apologize for the length, but I think context is important for this one. Can　いけない　translate as "cannot" as in "it is forbidden" instead of "unable?" I guess it can since it's virtually a synonym of だめ。Should I change it to "just can't?" Is the meaning of the bold sentence closer to "The characters have been erased with white-out, and I can't write over them with a pen" ? Sorry, but this is driving me crazy. It's on the tip of my tongue/fingers, whatever and I just can't get it.

[Bueller_007]

ぼくはあまりに記憶が弱い。だから、自分がすべきことは常にメモ書きにして残しておくようにしている。
　　この記憶の弱さは、ぼくが抱え込んでいる様々な不具合の中のひとつだ。それはつまることろ、ぼくをつくり上げるために用意された設計図にミスがあったのだということ。
　　ほんの１か所。
　　おそらく修正液で消して、その上からボールペンで書いたのがいけなかっただろう。もちろん、ものの例えだが、実際にも似たようなことがあったんだと思う。
　　とにかく文字がかすれたか、あるい下の字が顔を出してしまったのかは知らないけれど、ぼくの頭の中ではあるとても重要な化学物質がでたらめに分泌されるという、かなりでたらめな状況が生じている。

Translation:

I have a very poor memory. So when there's something I need to get done, I always try to leave myself a memo.
Poor memory is just one of the many different flaws that I have been burdened with. Basically, [typo: ことろ should be ところ] what I'm saying is that there are some errors in the plans that were used to construct me.
This is but one of them.
In all likelihood, my attempt to white them out and rewrite them in ballpoint pen was unsuccessful. Of course, this is only a metaphor, but I think it's an appropriate one.
At any rate, I don't know if the the characters I wrote have faded or if the ones written underneath have reappeared, but I think I'm going crazy. It's as if some of the vital chemicals in my brain are being secreted at random.

Can　いけない　translate as "cannot" as in "it is forbidden" instead of "unable?"

Yes.

Should I change it to "just can't?"

No.

Is the meaning of the bold sentence closer to "The characters have been erased with white-out, and I can't write over them with a pen" ?

No. It's past tense. And we know from the context of the subsequent sentence (that the "letters underneath are reappearing") that this was an effort that was tried and failed.

Consider this sentence, adapted from Eijirou:
小説を書くことでは、生活していけなかった。
"I couldn't make a living writing short stories."

Here, いけなかった represents an effort tried and failed.

So your sentence reads:
おそらく修正液で消して、その上からボールペンで書いたのがいけなかっただろう。
"In all likelihood, my attempt to white them out and rewrite them in ballpoint pen was unsuccessful."

Since you already knew that いけない means "unable", it looks like you got thrown by the placement of the comma.

[Brody]

bueller-san, thanks for the HUGE help. I was thrown off by おそらく　and だろう. Not knowing much about いけなかった yet, I was trying to make it into a hypothetical, as if he were considering if it were possible to rewrite his memory. Yet I very much like your translation of おそらく as "in all likelihood." It clears up the trouble for me.

Thanks to you and Jason-san for the awesome help.

[Brody]

Here's my next question:

I'm trying to figure out how to say:
"They found the dog sleeping on the shoulder of the road, dreaming."

Here's my attempt:

（彼は）路肩に犬が眠っていて、 夢を見ているのを見つけた。

Okay? Can I make it sound more natural? Also, this is an advanced question, but is there anyway to separate sleeping and dreaming, as I did in English?

ありがとう

[Jason]

i can think of several ways to do it.

The "putting both sleeping and dreaming is redundant" version:
彼達は路肩に夢を見ていた犬を見つけた。

The "let's put them both in anyway" version:
彼達は路肩に寝て、夢を見ていた犬を見つけた。

The "passive, iffy" version:
彼達に犬は路肩に見つけられた。寝て夢を見ていた。

[Bueller_007]

i can think of several ways to do it.

The "putting both sleeping and dreaming is redundant" version:
彼達は路肩に夢を見ていた犬を見つけた。

The "let's put them both in anyway" version:
彼達は路肩に寝て、夢を見ていた犬を見つけた。

The "passive, iffy" version:
彼達に犬は路肩に見つけられた。寝て夢を見ていた。

Quick note:
The plural of 彼 is 彼ら (sometimes 彼等, and pronounced かれら) not 彼達. I'm pretty sure 彼達 is not a Japanese word.

[Bueller_007]

Here's my next question:

I'm trying to figure out how to say:
"They found the dog sleeping on the shoulder of the road, dreaming."

Okay? Can I make it sound more natural? Also, this is an advanced question, but is there anyway to separate sleeping and dreaming, as I did in English?

犬は路肩で夢を見ているときに見つかれた。

My battery is dying. Will answer the second part tomorrow.

[Brody]

So,

彼らは路肩に犬が眠ていて、夢を見ているのを見つけた。
is wrong? (I'm basically asking, is putting it 'noun ga verb no wo found' wrong?)

Does it have to be that the actions go before the noun, in the English sense of 'They found the dog that was sleeping and dreaming on the shoulder" ? In English, that sounds too bookish for me (i.e. using the relative clause), but I'm looking for whatever is more natural in Japanese, so....

Also, I know it's redundant, I was just using it as an example. Kind of wanted to see how the two verbs would work together.

Thank you Jason-san and Bueller-san for your help.

[Jason]

So,

彼らは路肩に犬が眠ていて、夢を見ているのを見つけた。
is wrong? (I'm basically asking, is putting it 'noun ga verb no wo found' wrong?)

Eh....this sentence just doesn't work. But I'm tired right now, so maybe someone else would be so kind as to explain exactly why.

[Bueller_007]

犬は路肩で夢を見ているときに見つかれた。

My battery is dying. Will answer the second part tomorrow.

There was a typo in my last post. I meant to type 見つかった, not 見つかれた. Sorry for any confusion.

So it should be:
犬は路肩で夢を見ているときに見つかった。

I'd say you don't need the pronoun "they" at all, unless you're really trying to emphasize that it was THEM who found it. In which case:
犬は路肩で夢を見ているときに彼らによって見つけられた。

Separating sleeping & dreaming... I don't know why you'd want to do this, but here's the easy way:
犬は路肩で寝ているときに見つかった。夢を見ているときに。

Something like that... It's kind of awkward though.

[Bueller_007]

So,

彼らは路肩に犬が眠ていて、夢を見ているのを見つけた。
is wrong? (I'm basically asking, is putting it 'noun ga verb no wo found' wrong?)

Yes. It's wrong.

This sentence is really confusing. I don't think a Japanese person would understand it if it were written, and I'm almost certain that they wouldn't understand it if it were spoken.

#1 It's 路肩で not 路肩に.
#2 眠ていて is misspelled and out of place. It should be 眠っていて (small tsu: ねむっていて) and you should say 夢を見て眠っていて, not the other way around. But it's redundant anyway, so ditch the 眠る.

So you have:
彼らは路肩で犬が夢を見ているのを見つけた。

Which is better, and perhaps comprehensible, but still wrong.

Think about 犬が夢を見ているのを見つけた。

The purpose of の is to create a noun phrase. It qualifies the entire verb phrase that comes before it, right? For example, 彼は人前で話すのが得意です="He is good at speaking in public" (The part qualified by の is underlined.) So what did they find in your sentence? 犬が夢を見ているのを見つけた。They found THE ACTION of a dog dreaming. Not the dog itself. I would translate it as "[They] found the dreaming of a dog" or "They found the dog was dreaming."

Now, you could possibly say:
犬は，夢を見ているのを見つけた。

The は changes the way you parse the sentence. 犬 is now OUTSIDE the scope of the noun phrase. But while grammatically correct, this sentence is ambiguous and somewhat awkward. It could be translated as:

"As for dogs, [I] found a dreaming one." (Because の also can be translated as "one" or "ones".)

or

"The dog found a dreaming one." (Here, we don't know what "one" is. If the preceding sentence was talking about rabbits, then it could be that the dog found a dreaming rabbit.)


The translations in my last post are the most natural, I would say. They translate as "The dog was found while [it was] dreaming on the shoulder of the road," and "They found the dog while [it was] dreaming on the shoulder of the road."

[Brody]

Hmmm, I've opened a whole can of worms.

Here's what I've been trying to do. I thought it would help my Japanese if I worked on my ability to translate from English to Japanese (since I can barely speak in Japanese; I want to be able to speak fluently). I've been trying to speak in Japanese to myself, but other than short, simple sentences, I got stuck at a stand-still because I did not know if what I was saying was correct.

Thus, I decided that I would find books I liked in English and I would try translating them into Japanese. That way, I could make my attempt, and then I could see how a native Japanese speaker did it.

I chose The 25th Hour by David Benioff. I just got the book in Japanese.

The first sentence is: "They found the black dog sleeping on the shoulder of the West Side Highway, dreaming dog dreams."

I tried to keep things simple and take out some parts, thus the sentence I initially posted was created, "They found the dog sleeping on the shoulder of the road, dreaming." The dreaming part isn't really redundant, because of the "dog dreams" part. "Dog dreams" mean bad dreams, and thus this is our first clue that the dog has had a bad life. We shortly find out that the dog was abused.

Anyway, to the important part:

I first tried to figure out how to say noun verbing <--found. I checked Jim Breen's website and found tons of example sentences, such as その警官は犯人が逃げるのを見つけた。 教師は生徒が試験でカンニングをしているのを見つけた。 Even when I google のを見つけた I find a good 600,000 hits. Not to discredit you, Jason-san, I just don't understand why I can't use this construction.

Here's the translated version: ウェストサイド・ハイウェイの路肩に黒い犬が横たわっている。ふたりには眠っているように見えた。それこそ犬の夢でも見ているのか。

When I saw that translated version, I was absolutely crushed. As an English speaker, I think exactly like the original English version. There seems to be no way I could ever possibly figure out on my own how to translate it into something like the translated version; that is completely different.

So, I tried to mend something together out of my initial attempt. I figured if I could get something good out of that, there may still be hope for me yet.

Looks pretty bad right now.

Anyway, perhaps you can see where I got 路肩に from. I added the に in after I read the translated version. I originally had 路肩にいる. Now in hindsight though, I see that it probably is で。 横たわる needs an exact location, doesn't it, and this 眠る or 見る would not.

Hmmm, so confused and frustrated. Is speaking this hard? My main goal right now is to be able to speak well enough to get a job in a Japanese company. More and more I understand that speaking and writing fiction/prose are absolutely different things (both in English and Japanese). I don't really care if I can't write quality Japanese literature; I do however want to greatly improve my speaking ability to the point where I can say anything I want; it doesn't have to be poetic.

Do you think speaking and writing go hand-in-hand? Can you be an excellent speaker and not be able to write complex literary sentences like this?

Sorry for the ridiculous length of this post, but I deeply appreciate the help from both of you,

Brody
dazed and confused

[metablue]

How about reading Japanese books? I don't know how good you are at reading, but you could start simple and work up if you're not so practiced yet. That'll eventually give you a feel for how complex Japanese sentences are constructed. It worked for English, right?