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Help with "Yappari" and "nai"

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Mandrew100
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Help with "Yappari" and "nai"

Postby Mandrew100 » July 5th, 2007 2:36 pm

Hi all,

A couple of questions I'd really appreciate help with :

1) Yappari

Can anybody help me with "Yappari". I am listening to the following conversation (excuse Romanji) :

Woman : Iro wa ?

Man : aoii. Yappari aka da na.

The question is then what colour of pen does the man want ? I thought the answer would be blue but the correct answer is red. How is this the case ? I thought "Yappari" meant " As I thought / expected ?"

In a similar question man says :

"Yappari densha o matte shinai"

Does this mean he is going to wait for the train ?

2) "Nai"

Is nai used as a masuclie ending ? On a listening excerise a man says "Niku nai da" which I think must mean he does want meet - but isn't "nai" usually negative.

Many thanks - I'll sleep better once I know the answers ! :?

Martin

kichigaijin
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Postby kichigaijin » July 5th, 2007 5:33 pm

Yappari can mean "Afterall, I decided", "in the final analysis", "ultimately".
My electronic dictionary is pretty bad about giving good English equivalents for this term; especially in this case, but they do have one example.

sorry for the romaji, but i lost IME on my work computer:
yappari kocchi no houga iikana.
"I think I like this one better (after all)."

First sentence you gave is like:
Blue. (Wait) Yeah, I think I'll go with Red afterall.

Second sentence is:
Decided I'm not going to wait for the train afterall.

Nai's not a masculine ending, it can either mean "within" or "not at all".
Your third example from the reading was probably "there was no meat", with that "da" ending.

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Jason
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Re: Help with "Yappari" and "nai"

Postby Jason » July 5th, 2007 11:07 pm

Mandrew100 wrote:Is nai used as a masuclie ending ? On a listening excerise a man says "Niku nai da" which I think must mean he does want meet - but isn't "nai" usually negative.

Can you post more of the exercise? It doesn't make sense as it is now. だ NEVER follows ない (or any other verb or i-adjective) unless there's a ん or の between them.
Jason
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kichigaijin
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Postby kichigaijin » July 6th, 2007 4:32 am

Jason
My bad, thanks for the catch.
Know that だ can be a form of である or です。
My grammar book has the example of "きれいだ” and I forgot that きれい's a -な adjective.
Found one link for 肉内だ; so that one might be actually slightly feasible.
Some context would help though, definitely.

EDIT: Not that it's correct, but google came up with 300,000 hits for 行くだ。
Just found it interesting.

Mandrew100
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Postby Mandrew100 » July 6th, 2007 11:20 am

Tx for all your help.

Could this sentance :

"Yappari densha o matte shinai"

Also mean "Shall we stick we waiting for the train" ? This would make sense as the asnwer to the question is they decide to wait for the train.


The dialogue with "nai" goes like this - sorry again for romanji :

Restoran de :

Mise no hito : Dochira ni nasaimasu ka ?

Onna : Watashi wa sakana ni shiyo ka na

Otoko : Boku niku nai na

It's the "nai na" bit I don't get as the answer is he does want meat.

Thanks thanks !

Martin

Jason
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Postby Jason » July 6th, 2007 11:36 am

Mandrew100 wrote:Could this sentance :

"Yappari densha o matte shinai"

Also mean "Shall we stick we waiting for the train" ? This would make sense as the asnwer to the question is they decide to wait for the train.

If it was a questiion, then yes it would mean "Won't (you) wait for the train, after all?"

Mandrew100 wrote:The dialogue with "nai" goes like this - sorry again for romanji :

Restoran de :

Mise no hito : Dochira ni nasaimasu ka ?

Onna : Watashi wa sakana ni shiyo ka na

Otoko : Boku niku nai na

It's the "nai na" bit I don't get as the answer is he does want meat.

That line still doesn't make sense to me, either. Was this a written exercise that you copied down or was it a listening exercise that you transcribed yourself?
Jason
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Mandrew100
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Postby Mandrew100 » July 6th, 2007 12:58 pm

Hi Jason,

It's a questions from the 2001 JLPT listening test - perhaps I'm mishearing it :(

Wonder if the transcript is anywhere ?

Tx for your help - great that there are people like you around !

Jason
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Postby Jason » July 6th, 2007 1:13 pm

Could you possibly post a sound clip of it?
Jason
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Mandrew100
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Postby Mandrew100 » July 6th, 2007 1:21 pm

Actually I found the transcript !

男1:どちらになさいますか。
女 :私は魚にしようかな。
男2:僕は肉がいいな。

So I misheard !!!! This has puzzled me for ages. So ga ii sounds like nai then ?

nisenihonjin1400
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Postby nisenihonjin1400 » July 6th, 2007 1:23 pm

kichigaijin wrote:Know that だ can be a form of である or です。

This is incorrect. だ is not a form of either である or です. だ is a declarative ending to a sentence that reinforces the declaration that something is so. If you used です or である instead, it would not carry the same emphasis and/or meaning that だ would. This is also a reason why you can't use だ in questions.

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Postby Jason » July 6th, 2007 1:36 pm

Mandrew100 wrote:男2:僕は肉がいいな。

So I misheard !!!! This has puzzled me for ages. So ga ii sounds like nai then ?

Ah, that makes a lot more sense now. I had a feeling that might have been what that sentence actually was. I guess if it were pronounced fairly quickly, がいい could slur together into something that sounded like ない.
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Postby Mandrew100 » July 6th, 2007 1:40 pm

Tx all.

Could anybody help me with another one as well ? The dialogue is below. I'm not sure how the correct answer 4 is reached. Can anybody help ? Tx - really appreciate.

7番
男の人と女の人が話しています。男の人はみんなが並んでいる理由は何だといっていますか。
女:ねえ、見て、またあの店の前にたくさんの人が並んでいるわ。そんなに美味しいのかしら。
男:美味しいとか、安いとかじゃないと思うよ。
女:暇なのかしら。
男:いや、友達と話したりしながら待つのがいいんじゃないのかな。
男の人はみんなが並んでいる理由は何だといっていますか。
1.美味しいからです。
2.安いからです。
3.暇だからです。
4.楽しいからです。
答え:4

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Postby kichigaijin » July 6th, 2007 6:55 pm

nisenihonjin1400 wrote:
kichigaijin wrote:Know that だ can be a form of である or です。

This is incorrect. だ is not a form of either である or です. だ is a declarative ending to a sentence that reinforces the declaration that something is so. If you used です or である instead, it would not carry the same emphasis and/or meaning that だ would. This is also a reason why you can't use だ in questions.


Actually i got the relation between those 3 from definitions straight out of my Japanese to Japanese dictionary.
I'll post them later tonight when I'm on a computer that can handle Japanese (stupid IT department at work hosed my machine).
Even the added nuance of assertion doesn't necessarily prohibit "da" from being "a form" of (ie derived from) either of the other 2.

[EDIT: Here's what my Japanese-Japanese dictionaries say with sample sentences]

ーだ (2)
{-である}
>もう春~
>2に3を足すと5~
>明日は土曜日~
The above is just saying that it's used in places that ーである can be used.

・だ
です ・ である ・ のだ
(共通する意味)
断定を表わす。
(使い方の例)
{だ}彼は大学生だ / 昨日は雨だった / 今日は月曜日ではない / 次は私の番だわ
。。。
{のだ}彼にも都合があるのだ / 君が悪いんだ
(それぞれの意味と使い分け)
・1「だ」、断定すなわち肯定的な判断を表わす。「だ」のバリエーションとして、「でし」「である」「のだ」がある。「で」は「だ」の連用形。「です」は、「でございます」が変化したもの。「である」は、「で」に補助動詞「ある」が接続したもので、同様のものに「であります」「でございます」がある。「のだ」は準体助詞「の」に「だ」が接続したもの。これらは、「だ」と同じように断定表わすが、文体的な特徴に差異がみられる。
・2「だ」は、名詞(相当語句)に接続する、断定を表わす助動詞としては最も基本的なものであるが、用法上の制限をかなり受ける。たとえば、話し言葉では、文末を「だ」で言い切ることはほとんどない。「だ」で言い切ると、ぞんざいな表現だという印象を与えるため、そのあとに「よ」「ね」「わ」「ぞ」などの終助詞をつけて、語調をやわらげる。特に女性は、「だ」を省略して名詞に直接終助詞をつけることが多い)「次は私の番よ」)。文意でも、「だ」ではなく「である」を多く用いる。なお否定形は「で(は)ない」を用いるが、話し言葉では「じゃない」になる。
・3「です」は「だ」の丁寧形であるが、「だ」と違って名詞文だけではなく形容詞文にも用いる事が出来る(「山は高いです」「海は青いです」)。まだ、会話、文意の別なく用いられる。特に、話し言葉では「だ」ではなく「です」を用いるのが普通である。なお、形容詞文の過去表現は、「-でした」ではなく「-たです」を用いるのが一般的である。
・4「である」 (skip this coz it's nothing to do with da and i'm tired of typing LOL)
・5「のだ」は、「のだ」がなくても文として成立する事柄につけることによって、それを話し手の判断としてとらえ直し、相手に強く訴えかけようとする表現である。なお、疑問を表わす形は「のか」、丁寧な形は「のです」を用いる。話し言葉では「んだ」「んです」の形になることがある。

In a nutshell the whole thing says that だ is like an impolite & assertive form of です, in most cases people will use the です, and it's really rude if you end the sentence with it; so they'll typically add another gobi like よ,ね,わ at the end.

There's another entry that discusses the history going back to the Muromachi shogunate, giving some of the history of going from nitearu, to dearu, to dea, to da. But it's really long and obnoxious.

Even Yahoo dictionary gives ーである as a meaning for だ。

Doesn't really matter though because it wasn't だ at all.
Last edited by kichigaijin on July 7th, 2007 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bueller_007 » July 7th, 2007 1:21 am

nisenihonjin1400 wrote:
kichigaijin wrote:Know that だ can be a form of である or です。

This is incorrect. だ is not a form of either である or です. だ is a declarative ending to a sentence that reinforces the declaration that something is so. If you used です or である instead, it would not carry the same emphasis and/or meaning that だ would. This is also a reason why you can't use だ in questions.

Huh? This is not even close to true. The development of this copula is pretty well documented:
である->であ->だ.

And だ *can* be used in questions. It's just followed by an い particle instead of か. Or in phrases like "誰だか分からない".

There are syntactic difference between the two, but だ is 100% a derivation of である.

This is the Kojien entry for だ:
「にてある」から「である」、「であ」、「だ」と転じて室町時代に成った語で、関西の「じゃ」に対して関東で盛んとなった。断定を表す。丁寧には「です」を用いる。主に体言に接続する。活用語に付く場合には間に「の」を挟むことが多いが、未然形・仮定形ではじかに付くことも多い。「でも」「だが」「だから」「だって」「なら」等の接続詞を派生する。未然形は「う」に続く用法のみで、その「だろう」を一助動詞として別に扱う説もある。

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Postby kichigaijin » July 7th, 2007 2:29 am

Bueller-
Thanks man!
What you typed is exactly the entry I skipped out of my dictionary talking about the history going back to the Muromachi shogunate.


Mandrew
7番
#7

男の人と女の人が話しています。男の人はみんなが並んでいる理由は何だといっていますか。
A guy and a girl are talking. The man asks "Why is everyone lining up?".

女:ねえ、見て、またあの店の前にたくさんの人が並んでいるわ。そんなに美味しいのかしら。
Yeah, look, lots of people are lining up in front of that store again. I wonder if the food's that good.

男:美味しいとか、安いとかじゃないと思うよ。
I don't think the food's delicious, or cheap.

女:暇なのかしら。
Wonder if they've got too much spare time.

男:いや、友達と話したりしながら待つのがいいんじゃないのかな。
Nah, I wonder if it's just fun to hang out & chat with friends while waiting.

男の人はみんなが並んでいる理由は何だといっていますか。
What reason does the guy give for everyone lining up?

1.美味しいからです。
Because it's delicious.
2.安いからです。
Because it's cheap.
3.暇だからです。
Because they have too much free time.
4.楽しいからです。
Because it's fun.
答え:4
Answer: 4 - because he shot down every other reason and says that talking with your friends while waiting is "good", therefore you can imply that it's fun.

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