What is better speaking or writing Japanese

[kokujin_2000]

For the past few weeks I have been listening to the podcasts from the beginning. I know I have a long way to go before I can complete a good conversation. But as of late I wanted to understand the kanji and katakana to complement the spoken language. I was overwhelmed by the extensiveness of the written language and I fear I dont know where to begin. Could someone take the time to answer this post because I'm not sure what is a good starting point to learn written Japanese. Kanji or katakana.

Shaun Hurst

p.s. The Japanese Culture Class about superstition; a vehicle that transports the dead is called a HEARSE not a HURST (which happens to be my last name)

[Belton]

Well, the bad news is that it's difficult to learn to read and write Japanese. I think it is mainly the writing system that puts Japanese in the category of one of the 5 most difficult languages for English speakers to learn.

The good news is you don't *have* to be able to read and write in order to speak.

But of course it's better to be literate.
Start with kana. Learn hiragana then katakana. It's relatively simple, with a little effort it shouldn't take more than a month.
(regardless of whether you learn kanji, kana are essential to learn I think. )
Then start on kanji.
There are a number of schools of thought as to how to learn kanji. And there are several threads on this board discussing them.
But it can be done and can be quite satisfying but be aware that no matter what it will take years of effort.

As to how it compliments speaking...
Well with kana instead of romaji you are less tempted to use English sounds I think. Also it helps to an extent in learning how verbs and adjectives are declined.
Beyond that.
It's difficult to say, being able to read opens up new learning possibilities and new opportunities to communicate with Japanese people. Generally reading exposes you to a wider range of language than speaking. Which in turn will increase your speaking vocabulary and phrases.
Reading can be done at your own pace and it is much easier to figure out written pieces rather that spoken pieces. At the same time writing tends to need a larger vocabulary than speaking so it'll stretch you a bit more. If you also write you get to practice or rehearse spoken Japanese at a slower pace, without needing a Japanese person to listen to you. Once you master some basics places like mixi can be quite fun and useful. Or using Skype or MSN messager to text with Japanese. or even emailing with penpals.
However, the catch 22 situation is getting to a level where you can do useful reading. Although tools like Rikachan and online dictionaries help a lot, it takes work.

My advice would be.
Learn kana for now.
Use this while you get some basics in the spoken language.
Then start to break into kanji by finding out the kanji for words you are using a lot and start using the kanji when you write.
Then start a methodical system to learn kanji. I'd suggest following the Japanese Grade school order, or the JLPT exam order, for which kanji to learn.

[Airth]

Belton has given you some excellent advice and set out a good approach.
It's not easy to argue that the writing system isn't difficult, but I will anyway:

It's not difficult.

Time consuming? Yes.
Frustrating? Yes.
Tiring? Yes.
Challenging? Yes.
Confounding? Yes.
Difficult? No.

I say that because I really believe you have to approach learning Japanese writing with a very positive frame of mind. As Belton touched on, it is very doable and very rewarding, but it requires patience and perseverance. That's pretty much true of most things that are worth doing. If you make it a hobby rather than a chore you'll find it doesn't have to be overwhelming.

[spinozza]

I always find it amusing that when I check my email at the University (and I happen to have received an email from a Japanese friend), the person sitting next to me looks over and says "Can you actually read that?" (there is invariably someone sitting next to me sort of snooping at what you are doing) .

So to echo the other sentiments, yes it is rewarding, but slow going. After all, it takes Japanese kids 12 years...you can't expect to be an expert overnight.

[Ulver_684]

For the past few weeks I have been listening to the podcasts from the beginning. I know I have a long way to go before I can complete a good conversation. But as of late I wanted to understand the kanji and katakana to complement the spoken language. I was overwhelmed by the extensiveness of the written language and I fear I dont know where to begin. Could someone take the time to answer this post because I'm not sure what is a good starting point to learn written Japanese. Kanji or katakana.

Shaun Hurst

p.s. The Japanese Culture Class about superstition; a vehicle that transports the dead is called a HEARSE not a HURST (which happens to be my last name)

I think that both ways are better and a most have and know because if you don't know Japanese you can't communicate with Japanese people and Japanese speakers.

If you can't write Japanese then you would never write and read a letter or a book in Japanese!

[lonna_senpai]

So to echo the other sentiments, yes it is rewarding, but slow going. After all, it takes Japanese kids 12 years...you can't expect to be an expert overnight.

Wow! 12yrs! I had no idea it took that long! I feel better then only know about 200 kanji...so far! It's just so much!! But once you learn some you just don't want to stop!

[Robato]

To speak Japanese it involves many things we all know this but for beginners 1/2 years into the language then maybe below is agood tip.

Basically just make sure youre hiragana and katakana are good it's enough at this stage .Work on the grammar , verb conjugation ,vocabularly , speaking, learning about the culture --its much much more important than kanji. I went for years not bothering.

The key to Japanese is verb conjugation and I had it drilled for ages .if you cant do this you cant speak Japanese . Its awaste of time learning lots of vocabulary.


i spent my time nearly 10 years trying to speak and its challenging enough.I am still battleing away.In my case when iused the telephone, met people etc getting around you have to speak.Listening is more important than kanji i think.My Japanese boss thought kanji was a waste of of time for foreigners really. I even bought a kanji dictionary and carried it with me but barely used it as it was complicated to use it!!

its so frustrating you can spend 10 years in Japan or more and never be able to read your gas bill, write a kanji for asimple word. to us seems strange that we would not know how to write say the flower name rose.Ask most Japanese they cant do it. An extreme example I know. Its difficult kanji. But then again most people learning kanji can write Tokyo university or whatever from the basic kanji at the beginning its funny.You can burn hours and hours on kanji but you will not get the same rewards as devoting that time to speaking, listening, building your relationships etc

Everyone knows from drilling and learning kanji that its so easy to forget afterwards very frustrating.

sure its also frusrating that you cant read documents at the bank, reports from doctors , be unable to read newspaers etc after many years in japan

as they say shoganai!!!!

Before I left Japan I spent more and more time on kanji and not just drilling and remembering I had to write it spent a coupleodf years then after not using it it vanishes.

So to try and sum up dont worry about kanji you will not need it unless you are majoring in Japanese or want to be a translator basically.

[Airth]

While I can agree with the gist of your post, there are a couple of things that I have to take issue with:

The key to Japanese is verb conjugation and I had it drilled for ages .if you cant do this you cant speak Japanese . Its awaste of time learning lots of vocabulary.

If anything, in my experience Japanese is a language where you can go a long way with just a bunch of words and limited grammar knowledge. Anyway, it's not like it's difficult to switch between the basic tenses, most people only really run into serious difficulties with the passive and causative.

My Japanese boss thought kanji was a waste of of time for foreigners really. I even bought a kanji dictionary and carried it with me but barely used it as it was complicated to use it!!

its so frustrating you can spend 10 years in Japan or more and never be able to read your gas bill, write a kanji for asimple word.

...

sure its also frusrating that you cant read documents at the bank, reports from doctors , be unable to read newspaers etc after many years in japan

It's pretty typical for Japanese people to think that understanding kanji is beyond the grasp of someone from outside Asia. In fact, they will be frequently stunned that you can manage to read Hiragana. It's hardly surprising then that your boss thought learning kanji was a waste of time. That doesn't mean he was right.

And I've got to say that if after ten years you couldn't read your gas bill and those other things you mention, I have to challenge your assertion that it was frustrating. If you are interested in learning the writing system and have the necessary motivation, then surely ten years is more that enough time to at least be able to deal with the documents you handle on a regular basis.

to us seems strange that we would not know how to write say the flower name rose.Ask most Japanese they cant do it. An extreme example I know. Its difficult kanji.

Not only is it an extreme example, it is also meaningless. Japanese people can write the word rose. It's バラ. The question is can you write the word rose in Gothic script? I can't.

So to try and sum up dont worry about kanji you will not need it unless you are majoring in Japanese or want to be a translator basically.

I don't match your criteria, but my life in Japan would be far poorer if I couldn't use kanji. If you're in Japan for an extended period of time and can't follow the written form of communication you will always find yourself detached in some way from the world around you.

Right, I feel better now I've got all that off my chest. As I said, I agree with the gist of your post, which is:

Work on the grammar , verb conjugation ,vocabularly , speaking, learning about the culture --its much much more important than kanji.

...

You can burn hours and hours on kanji but you will not get the same rewards as devoting that time to speaking, listening, building your relationships etc

Exactly. Studying kanji can easily swallow up all your time. Time that would probably have been better spent learning how to communicate and interact with the people around you. Even so, if someone has the ambition to master kanji then by all means fit it into your learning schedule. Learning to read and write is very much doable.

[Robato]

Thank you for the reply and taking time to reply.

I dont think many foreigners can read the post coming through their door after 10 ,15 or 20 years in Japan unless they are really studying kanji.Most people are working making a living ,bringing up afamily whatever their serious language studying may only ammount to a few hrs aweek. If you look at the language schools in Japan not exactly bustling with foreigners learning Japanese.Most are doing self study.Many don't want to spend the money is another reason.

A lot of people find their stream and settle for getting by , or not bothering.
10 years as a European learning Japanese would be masterd to a much greater extent in comparison if thats all you are doing.A student of Japanese say 4 years at uni then 2/3 years masters in the UK would be in JLPT test level 2 swimming around there !!!! thats someone studying only not working!!!!

I always studied and i always had lessons at least a couple of hrs a week and it was mainly targeted towards work situations in Japanese,negotiation skills,listening etc


I still study everyday do to this day something in Japanese .
My kanji level is poor for my comfort but better now than before..i still am trying to do it.


My answer below is a bit of a ramble.


A few words and greetings etc in Japan can go far so far it will take you to almost anywhere you want to go!!!! as we know depends on the situation.The language has a lot of space around it as we are dealing with a silent culture here for the best part.

some words below

doumo
sumimasen
onegaishimasu
chotto
shoganai
arigatou gozaimasu
otsukarasama desu
okaga sama de
kampai
muzukashii
kawaii
yoroshiku
etc

most people reading this site will probably know but their usage and mastering them will take you very far in this language.

Japanese people like the fact that they have a difficult language.It helps to keep them apart from us --something else for the list.Especially with kanji even after years Japanese will say do you undertsand on and kun reading and if you say yes then they will give you the next test can you write this or can you read this .

on and go
I have asked Japanese why they say ohanami ,oshougatsu,

but goshokai,gorenraku
etc they are not able to answer!!



Usually if you say you are good at something you will set yourself up for afall !! happened to me many times. If you say you can read and write kanji then you will open yourself up for the tests at some point !! obscure calligraphry on a restaurant wall can you read it.

I had a situation at work in the UK where I showed a Japanese guy for two hours our factory and spoke in japanese most of the time he praised me told everyone around me I had great Japanese and then said but can you read this -----------a full blown letter about something all in kanji--------i said yes if you give me the whole day to !!!!!!!!! laughs and back to his comfort zone of not getting to close !!! very frustrating. It makes a foreigner feel like hey you shot me down and made me look like I cant read at all !! So perhaps next time ill be prepared !!!!bring out Shakepeares sonnets and ask in return can you read this !!!! im joking only.

This is like the rose example---we all know the katakana bara however not the kanji its not used basically so forget it -----lots of difficult kanji are not used by Japanese.
Compared to Chinese it should be breeze for us all to know 2000 or so kanji!!




When I had teachers in Japan some of them felt that kanji was basically beyond foreigners .I never liked this and it made more determined later on.One teacher felt that it was something you could learn on your own why go to a class spend money and time with a teacher doing that. Better spending the time in conversation ,learning grammar,dealing with Japanese that you need for daily life etc.so i went along with that and self studied it.

I also had one teacher who would test my kanji and when i got them right in a flip card test he used to laugh as if my god the monkey got it right!!! so annoying.



if you write your name in Japanese people will say sugoi or whatever we know
We have all been to japan and said one word and heard the reply nihongo ga jozu des ne answer or something ------however to me it basically means Hello!!!

ok it a funny answer to some but those but its just afiler for the air something to say a set expression .



There is atime issue here we only have one life!!! and how do you want to spend it . My view would be that i would prefer to be able to talk , negotiate and express myself, listen to japanese , watch Tv etc etc all the things that you can do if you pt your time into speaking and listening. It was them ain reason for not busting my butt on kanji .

However i am still trying just putting it into my perspective !!
sorry for this ramble fols any comments appreciated

[Bueller_007]

I dont think many foreigners can read the post coming through their door after 10 ,15 or 20 years in Japan unless they are really studying kanji.Most people are working making a living ,bringing up afamily whatever their serious language studying may only ammount to a few hrs aweek. If you look at the language schools in Japan not exactly bustling with foreigners learning Japanese.Most are doing self study.Many don't want to spend the money is another reason.

Simple answer: the vast majority of Westerners in Japan know that they aren't going to stay in Japan for the long haul, so they don't really bother to study the language.

A lot of people find their stream and settle for getting by , or not bothering.
10 years as a European learning Japanese would be masterd to a much greater extent in comparison if thats all you are doing.A student of Japanese say 4 years at uni then 2/3 years masters in the UK would be in JLPT test level 2 swimming around there !!!! thats someone studying only not working!!!!

I doubt that. You should be coming out of a 4-year uni course with AT LEAST JLPT level 2, and I'd imagine that a Masters (where you'd have to read original source materials for your thesis) would take you to JLPT 1 or higher. If not, it's certainly a waste of money IMO, because you can do it in less time studying by yourself.

on and go
I have asked Japanese why they say ohanami ,oshougatsu,
but goshokai,gorenraku
etc they are not able to answer!!

I'm not sure if this is a question, but the answer is simply that "o" is a kun-yomi, and tends to be used before other kun-yomi words, and "go" is an on-yomi and tends to be used before on-yomi words. Not particularly complicated.

Usually if you say you are good at something you will set yourself up for afall !! happened to me many times. If you say you can read and write kanji then you will open yourself up for the tests at some point !! obscure calligraphry on a restaurant wall can you read it.

"Tests" like this have never happened in my experience unless someone has deliberately gone out of their way to make an ass of themselves. One of my friends did the typical arrogant foreigner thing asking a Japanese person to draw the kanji for "rose", and when the Japanese person couldn't do it, my friends quickly jotted it down. The Japanese person said "Very impressive. But can you write your full address?" Nope. End of test. Guy was a poseur.

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of your post was supposed to be. That learning kanji is too difficult and a waste of time? I really doubt that.

[Robato]

Thank you for the good reply.
It was a bit of a ramble from me.

Basic point was in my opinion I would put more energy into other things other than kanji.I am definitely not saying don't do kanji but don't let it bog you down compared to other more important and enjoyable learning areas.


Like most foreigners in Japan you need a good Japanese person to help you .Probably your boss, sponsor, partner, friend.They are the ones that helped me in those difficult unreadable kanji moments. Going to a doctor when you have a health problem springs to mind, the estate agent contract etc, the pension .

Simple answer: the vast majority of Westerners in Japan know that they aren't going to stay in Japan for the long haul, so they don't really bother to study the language.

its one answer , perhaps i found myself in the middle --never thought I would be forever there but a certainly a few years .Enjoyed learning the language, paid for lessons over a long period of time, bought the books and mainly self studied .I was using the language daily at work.Using atelephone ,meeting people over an 8hr ++day didnt invlove kanji for me in my case.



I

doubt that. You should be coming out of a 4-year uni course with AT LEAST JLPT level 2, and I'd imagine that a Masters (where you'd have to read original source materials for your thesis) would take you to JLPT 1 or higher. If not, it's certainly a waste of money IMO, because you can do it in less time studying by yourself.

thank you for letting me know that.I am studying by myself and that helps to put things in perspective.I have along haul ahead.

on and go
I have asked Japanese why they say ohanami ,oshougatsu,
but goshokai,gorenraku
etc they are not able to answer!!

Its an easy answer for us as we are studying the Japanese language.Japanese people aren't studying Japanese !!
I have asked that to quite afew around 8 Japanese people and to my surprise they could not reply with the right answer.


I'm not quite sure what the purpose of your post was supposed to be. That learning kanji is too difficult and a waste of time? I really doubt that.

not a waste of time for some.

depends on your situation and aims.some beginners will be put off the language if they cant do it or are bogged down by it .


in my case it wasnt the main focus of my Japanese learning while i worked and lived in Japan.

ironically now that I am not in Japan I am studying kanji more by myself and my level is better than when I lived there .Thanks to good web sites.

Not so easy to have japanese speakers around now.

[annie]

I dont think many foreigners can read the post coming through their door after 10 ,15 or 20 years in Japan unless they are really studying kanji.Most people are working making a living ,bringing up afamily whatever their serious language studying may only ammount to a few hrs aweek. If you look at the language schools in Japan not exactly bustling with foreigners learning Japanese.Most are doing self study.Many don't want to spend the money is another reason.

There are a lot of foreigners here at language school. More who are from other Asian countries, but still loads. Sure, not as many people studying Japanese as English. But missing the point here.

I've been here for a year and a half and can read all of the important mail that I get. bills are easy; there aren't that many kanji and the format is the same every month. and i just toss all of the adverts. if you can't read your bills then you're putting forth absolutely no effort whatsoever.

maybe it's just me but i like being able to read the newspaper and buying inexpensive novels. and i like knowing what's in the packages of food at the grocery store.

And I do find studying kanji to be enjoyable and an important part of studying Japanese. (As opposed to people who hate kanji and thus feel that they're not important.... you know that sour grapes fable?)

[Robato]

Thanks for the comment.

There are a lot of foreigners here at language school. More who are from other Asian countries, but still loads. Sure, not as many people studying Japanese as English. But missing the point here.

Can you recommend the school plan to visit Japan later in the year.My next trip i will travel and study Japanese for three months.

I've been here for a year and a half and can read all of the important mail that I get. bills are easy; there aren't that many kanji and the format is the same every month. and i just toss all of the adverts. if you can't read your bills then you're putting forth absolutely no effort whatsoever.

No effort is not the case.I always knew the differences between gas, electric,local tax, a pension etc i knew how to pay them etc my pain was i could not read the details .i was not fluent in reading kanji. of course I knew the kanji for denki and gas is written in katakana etc

maybe it's just me but i like being able to read the newspaper and buying inexpensive novels. and i like knowing what's in the packages of food at the grocery store.

I am presuming that you had some ability before living there for 1 and half years. To read anewsaper in such a short time would be amazing.I wish i was able to .

And I do find studying kanji to be enjoyable and an important part of studying Japanese. (As opposed to people who hate kanji and thus feel that they're not important.... you know that sour grapes fable?)

Its an important part of studying japanee but for me it wasnt the main focus.That was also the guidance of the Japanese people I knew .
My kanji ability is better now thatI left Japan due to web sites, more time and the fact that Iam unable to speak with people so easily now that i left.

[Ulver_684]

Thanks for the comment.

There are a lot of foreigners here at language school. More who are from other Asian countries, but still loads. Sure, not as many people studying Japanese as English. But missing the point here.

Can you recommend the school plan to visit Japan later in the year.My next trip i will travel and study Japanese for three months.

I've been here for a year and a half and can read all of the important mail that I get. bills are easy; there aren't that many kanji and the format is the same every month. and i just toss all of the adverts. if you can't read your bills then you're putting forth absolutely no effort whatsoever.

No effort is not the case.I always knew the differences between gas, electric,local tax, a pension etc i knew how to pay them etc my pain was i could not read the details .i was not fluent in reading kanji. of course I knew the kanji for denki and gas is written in katakana etc

maybe it's just me but i like being able to read the newspaper and buying inexpensive novels. and i like knowing what's in the packages of food at the grocery store.

I am presuming that you had some ability before living there for 1 and half years. To read anewsaper in such a short time would be amazing.I wish i was able to .

And I do find studying kanji to be enjoyable and an important part of studying Japanese. (As opposed to people who hate kanji and thus feel that they're not important.... you know that sour grapes fable?)

Its an important part of studying japanee but for me it wasnt the main focus.That was also the guidance of the Japanese people I knew .
My kanji ability is better now thatI left Japan due to web sites, more time and the fact that Iam unable to speak with people so easily now that i left.

Robato-san!

I agree and I'm with you my friend! Learning Japanese is hard and not all of us get to learned that fast.

I have one year studying and I still a Newbie and Beginner! I'm know that we are going slow but save. We will learn Japanese 100% slowly slowly and the jar will fill!

[joroniconia]

For the past few weeks I have been listening to the podcasts from the beginning. I know I have a long way to go before I can complete a good conversation. But as of late I wanted to understand the kanji and katakana to complement the spoken language. I was overwhelmed by the extensiveness of the written language and I fear I dont know where to begin. Could someone take the time to answer this post because I'm not sure what is a good starting point to learn written Japanese. Kanji or katakana.

Shaun Hurst

p.s. The Japanese Culture Class about superstition; a vehicle that transports the dead is called a HEARSE not a HURST (which happens to be my last name)

I think that both ways are better and a most have and know because if you don't know Japanese you can't communicate with Japanese people and Japanese speakers.

If you can't write Japanese then you would never write and read a letter or a book in Japanese!

Hmm i think if you can speak then how can your write down the conversations that people are having insdie the story?