Use of 込むin compound verbs

[jiashen]

woo~ I learnt how to input Japanese in my computer!

Anyway I was learning the lyrics to a song (which is the reason I learnt Japanese in the first place haha) and I came across this line:
太陽が反転するまでしゃべりこんだ

I'm assuming the こんだ refers to 込む, which the dictionary says means "to go inside (usu. only when used in compound verbs)". I also read from another book that says 込むmeans "completely" when used in compound verbs, but both of these meanings don't seem to fit that line. There's a Chinese fansite (I'm Chinese) that translates it [to Chinese] as "chat all day till the sun reverses its course", so I'm guessing the 込むacts like a "busily [chatting]" or an intensifier.
(Do note that since I'm translating a translation, my translation is probably rather screwed up haha)

Basically, I was wondering if this is a common way to use 込む, whether it's versatile or limited to certain compound verbs, and if my interpretation in this context is accurate. Thanks in advance.

BTW this song is ユメクイby Ai Otsuka.
crap I suddenly can't write in Jap after tweaking some settings. crapcrapcrap.

[Airth]

You're on the right track with 'busily chatting'. In this case you could translate 込む as 'engrossed'.

EDICT lists the following Priority words with 込む as a suffix:

意気込む 【いきごむ】 (v5m,vi) to be enthusiastic about, (P)
打ち込む 【うちこむ】 (v5m) to drive in (e.g., nail, stake), to devote oneself to, to shoot into, to smash, to throw into, to cast into, (P)
売り込む 【うりこむ】 (v5m,vt) to build a market for, to become well-known, to sell, (P)
追い込む 【おいこむ】 (v5m,vt) to herd, to corner, to drive, (P)
送り込む 【おくりこむ】 (v5m,vt) to send in, (P)
押し込む 【おしこむ】 (v5m) to push into, to crowd into, (P)
落ち込む 【おちこむ】 (v5m,vi) to fall into, to feel down (sad), (P)
思い込む 【おもいこむ】 (v5m,vi) to be under impression that, to be convinced that, to imagine that, to set one's heart on, to be bent on, (P)
書き込む 【かきこむ】 (v5m,vt) (1) to fill in (writing), (2) to post a message (e.g., on a bulletin-board), to store, (P)
刈り込む 【かりこむ】 (v5m,vt) to cut, to dress, to prune, to trim, to clip, (P)
食い込む 【くいこむ】 (v5m,vi) to eat into, (P)
組み込む 【くみこむ】 (v5m,vt) to insert, to include, to cut in (printing), (P)
吸い込む 【すいこむ】 (v5m,vt) (1) to inhale, to breathe in, to suck up, to imbibe, (2) to absorb, to soak up, (P)
注ぎ込む 【そそぎこむ】 (v5m,vt) to pour into (liquids), to pump into, (P)
立て込む 【たてこむ】 (v5m) to be crowded, to be busy, (P)
注ぎ込む 【つぎこむ】 (v5m,vt) to invest in, to put into, to inject, to impregnate, to infuse, to instill, to implant, to imbue, (P)
付け込む 【つけこむ】 (v5m,vi) to take advantage of, to impose on, to make an entry, (P)
突っ込む 【つっこむ】 (v5m) (1) to thrust something into something, (2) to plunge into, to go into deeply, (3) to meddle, to interfere, (P)
積み込む 【つみこむ】 (v5m,vt) to load (with goods, cargo), to put on board, to stow aboard, (P)
詰め込む 【つめこむ】 (v5m,vt) to cram, to stuff, to jam, to squeeze, to compress, to pack, to crowd, (P)
溶け込む 【とけこむ】 (v5m,vi) to melt into, (P)
飛び込む 【とびこむ】 (v5m,vi) to jump in, to leap in, to plunge into, to dive, (P)
取り込む 【とりこむ】 (v5m) to take in, to capture (e.g., image), to introduce, to be busy, to be confused, (P)
怒鳴り込む 【どなりこむ】 (v5m,vi) to storm in with a yell, (P)
流れ込む 【ながれこむ】 (v5m,vi) to flow, to pour, to stream, (P)
投げ込む 【なげこむ】 (v5m,vt) to throw into, (P)
煮込む 【にこむ】 (v5m,vi) to cook together, to boil well, (P)
飲み込む 【のみこむ】 (v5m,vt) (1) to gulp down, to swallow deeply, (2) to understand, to take in, to catch on to, to learn, to digest, (P)
乗り込む 【のりこむ】 (v5m,vi) (1) to board, to embark on, to get into (a car), to ship (passengers), to man (a ship), to help (someone) into, (2) to march into, to enter, (P)
入り込む 【はいりこむ】 (v5m,vi) (1) to go into, to come into, to penetrate, to get in, to step in (a house), (2) to become complicated, (P)
話し込む 【はなしこむ】 (v5m,vt) to be deep in talk, (P)
話込む 【はなしこむ】 (v5m,vt) to be deep in talk, (P)
払い込む 【はらいこむ】 (v5m,vt) to deposit, to pay in, (P)
冷え込む 【ひえこむ】 (v5m,vi) to get colder, to get chilled, (P)
引っ込む 【ひっこむ】 (v5m,vi) to draw back, to sink, to cave in, (P)
吹き込む 【ふきこむ】 (v5m) to blow into, to breathe into, to inspire, to lay down a recording (music, video, etc.), to indoctrinate, (P)
振り込む 【ふりこむ】 (v5m) to make a payment via bank deposit transfer, (P)
巻き込む 【まきこむ】 (v5m,vt) to roll up, to involve, to enfold, to swallow up, to drag into, (P)
丸め込む 【まるめこむ】 (v5m,vt) (1) to coax, to seduce, (2) to roll up and put in (to something), to bundle up, (P)
見込む 【みこむ】 (v5m,vt) to anticipate, to estimate, (P)
申し込む 【もうしこむ】 (v5m,vt) to apply for, to make an application, to propose (marriage), to offer (mediation), to make an overture (of peace), to challenge, to lodge (objections), to request (an interview), to subscribe for, to book, to reserve, (P)
持ち込む 【もちこむ】 (v5m,vt) to lodge, to take something into .., to bring in, (P)
盛り込む 【もりこむ】 (v5m,vt) to incorporate, to include, (P)
割り込む 【わりこむ】 (v5m,vt) to cut in, to thrust oneself into, to wedge oneself in, to muscle in on, to interrupt, to disturb, (P)

[Garyuchin]

Oddly, the Japanese translates directly to the same English as does the Chinese:
I talked til the sun turned over. (more likely "we" than "I" though)
太陽が反転するまでしゃべりこんだ
turned over - completed its traverse - more likely "came back/returned" (which would make it "throughout the night/until dawn.")
しゃべりこんだ　talk+crowded/packed/congested/filled, colloquially "yattered away," "talked non-stop," yes, "busily chatted/chattered" would fit. And I can see how "completely" can be shoe-horned into the context.

NTC Kanji Dictionary (published by permission from Kenkyusha Ltd., Tokyo) makes it certain:

emphatic verbal suffix indicating intense involvement in an activity

second usage as a verbal suffix

continuation of present state

Hmmm....at that, it could be either "chattered non-stop" OR "chatted intensely." - I'll put my money on "non-stop."

[jiashen]

Thanks Airth. That EDICT is hardcore. I think I'll stick to Denshi Jisho haha. It's strange that even though there are so many "priority" words, しゃべりこむis not in there. Does that mean this is rare phrasing? Witty wordplay? Or just uncommon but understood?

Garyuchin, what's a "verbal" suffix? You mean used only in colloquial settings?

[Bueller_007]

Thanks Airth. That EDICT is hardcore. I think I'll stick to Denshi Jisho haha. It's strange that even though there are so many "priority" words, しゃべりこむis not in there. Does that mean this is rare phrasing? Witty wordplay? Or just uncommon but understood?

Garyuchin, what's a "verbal" suffix? You mean used only in colloquial settings?

しゃべりこむ is quite rare. I get 97 google hits (compared to 話し込む, which gets 156,000.)

"verbal" suffix = a suffix derived from/related to a verb

P.S. Denshi Jisho is copied straight from EDICT.

[Bueller_007]

it could be either "chattered non-stop" OR "chatted intensely." - I'll put my money on "non-stop."

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[jiashen]

Thanks Airth. That EDICT is hardcore. I think I'll stick to Denshi Jisho haha. It's strange that even though there are so many "priority" words, しゃべりこむis not in there. Does that mean this is rare phrasing? Witty wordplay? Or just uncommon but understood?

Garyuchin, what's a "verbal" suffix? You mean used only in colloquial settings?

しゃべりこむ is quite rare. I get 97 google hits (compared to 話し込む, which gets 156,000.)

"verbal" suffix = a suffix derived from/related to a verb

P.S. Denshi Jisho is copied straight from EDICT.

hey thanks for clearing everything up. Yeah I had a feeling they're related, coz their definitions were the same, but Denshi Jisho is so much more pleasant to the eyes haha. Unless I'm looking at the wrong one. mmm...

[Airth]

しゃべりこむ is quite rare. I get 97 google hits (compared to 話し込む, which gets 156,000.)

What search criteria did you use? When I checked Japanese only pages on Google I turned up more like 400,000 for しゃべり込む.

Another one that doesn't make the 'P' list is 寝込む, which also produces around 400,000 Google hits. You always have to take the Priority words as a basic guide to help give some focus to your study. If you read up on how a word is given 'P' status, you'll realise it's not exactly reliable. But as far as I know, there is no good Japanese corpus out there (forget Tanaka), so EDICT's Priority marking is about the best we've got.

[Garyuchin]

Aye. I'll go along with that Bueller....but having frequently engaged in such activity in my younger years, I'll stick with my original bet.

Verbal suffix: quick and nasty definition, something tacked onto the end of a verb to modify its meaning or application. ........... えっと .... a verb's added ending.
ummm.... If I remember rightly Jim Breens P classification relates more to popular than priority.

違うの (well, a triangle on the marks sheet anyway)
from Jeffreys Japanese<>English Dictionary (also a wwwjdic interface)
In addition, there are also (P) entries denoting the most commonly-used words in Japanese, as, "identified by examining several small dictionaries, and lists of common gairaigo from Japanese newspapers," to quote Jim Breen.

[Bueller_007]

What search criteria did you use? When I checked Japanese only pages on Google I turned up more like 400,000 for しゃべり込む.

Try again, putting "しゃべりこむ" in quotation marks. The word is so rare that Google's near-inexhaustible corpus doesn't even contain it. Since it doesn't recognize it, it splits it, looking for pages that have both しゃべり and こむ.

Jim has written a paper about this and other issues with Japanese search engines here:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/snlp/wwwjsrch.html

しゃべりこむ gets 373000, "しゃべりこむ" gets 96 (not 97 anymore for me, for some reason...) For proof that this is what Google is doing, search for しゃべりこむ without the quotation marks, and then jump to result page 8 or 9.

If I remember rightly Jim Breens P classification relates more to popular than priority.

Well, it literally stands for "Priority", but yes, that is of course normally gauged by usage.

In addition, there are also (P) entries denoting the most commonly-used words in Japanese, as, "identified by examining several small dictionaries, and lists of common gairaigo from Japanese newspapers," to quote Jim Breen.

These are considered to be some of the more "problematic" p-entries, especially the harvested gairaigo. Many of them are far, far below the limit normally set for a p-tag.

The litmus test nowadays is "significantly more than 1 million Google hits". Verbs have a lower standard because searching for a noun like "就職" turns up every possible hit, whereas searching for "持ち込む", for example, only turns up hits for that single conjugation, making the hit count artificially low.

To be honest, I doubt that all of the words on that 〜込む list are p-worthy. As I recall, Jim went through a Japanese-Japanese dictionary of compound verbs a number of years ago, entering all the new ones into EDICT as he went. He seems to have assigned p-tags to some of them. Either that or they're from one of the "small dictionaries".

[Airth]

What search criteria did you use? When I checked Japanese only pages on Google I turned up more like 400,000 for しゃべり込む.

Try again, putting "しゃべりこむ" in quotation marks. The word is so rare that Google's near-inexhaustible corpus doesn't even contain it. Since it doesn't recognize it, it splits it, looking for pages that have both しゃべり and こむ.

Jim has written a paper about this and other issues with Japanese search engines here:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/snlp/wwwjsrch.html

しゃべりこむ gets 373000, "しゃべりこむ" gets 96 (not 97 anymore for me, for some reason...) For proof that this is what Google is doing, search for しゃべりこむ without the quotation marks, and then jump to result page 8 or 9.

Thanks Bueller, it didn't occur to me that it would be treated as two separate words. If I had bothered to look at the second page of results it would have been blatantly obvious.

That article you linked to is very interesting. I've often wondered about the significant difference in hits produced by Google and Yahoo, and this goes part of the way towards explaining why.

Some of the following points may have changed since the article was written but I found them of interest:

* Adding 'の' to a search to cut out Chinese pages. Of course, it looks like both engines do a good job of isolating Japanese pages, but this is something I hadn't thought of.
* The problem of line breaks. When a line break occurs in the middle of a word it will not get picked up.
* Google ignores 々.
* The weaknesses of each engine when dealing with kanji compounds or verb inflections.

The whole verb inflection problem is one that's been bothering me for some time. I tried searching for "しゃべりこ＊" and ended up with 206 matches. On the one hand it came back with しゃべりこまれます and しゃべりこんじゃいました, but it also produced some completed unrelated nonsense as well. Even so, using ＊ for the inflection would seem to be a reasonable compromise.

[Bueller_007]

Google ignores 々.

That paper is a couple of years old. Apparently, Jim has some connections in Google Japan, and emailed them asking "What the hell are you thinking discounting '々' in search strings?" and that issue has since been fixed.

One issue that remains is that Google ignores punctuation and spaces. So if you search for something like "度胸女", you get 12,000 hits, but they're all from the proverb "男は度胸、女は愛敬".

Even so, using ＊ for the inflection would seem to be a reasonable compromise.

This doesn't really work. It works for your example because it's quite long, and it's not all kanji. But try again, searching for "話*". Google recognizes 話 as the noun "はなし", so all returned hits have that usage. I.e. 度もメイは話を聞いた, etc. Searching for "聞*" (surely not recognized as a standalone word) gives things like "聞修院 です".

A search for "落と*" turns up lots of hits, but they all seem to be 落とされる. I believe what's happening here is that the * is required to be a separate word. Google has perhaps parsed 落とされる as "落と" and "される".

[Airth]

Even so, using ＊ for the inflection would seem to be a reasonable compromise.

This doesn't really work. It works for your example because it's quite long, and it's not all kanji. But try again, searching for "話*". Google recognizes 話 as the noun "はなし", so all returned hits have that usage. I.e. 度もメイは話を聞いた, etc. Searching for "聞*" (surely not recognized as a standalone word) gives things like "聞修院 です".

A search for "落と*" turns up lots of hits, but they all seem to be 落とされる. I believe what's happening here is that the * is required to be a separate word. Google has perhaps parsed 落とされる as "落と" and "される".

OK. As always interesting and informative.

I'm determined to try and find a way to force Google into giving me the results I want. I played around with a couple of ideas and ended up with this. It's a little cumbersome but I think it might work; input the verb with the beginning of each inflection followed by '＊' and separated with 'OR', as follows:

話さ＊ OR 話し＊OR 話す＊ OR 話せ＊OR 話そ＊
聞か＊ OR 聞き＊ OR 聞く＊ OR 聞け＊ OR 聞こ＊
落とさ＊ OR 落とし＊ OR 落とす＊ OR 落とせ＊ OR 落とそ＊

I don't have time to check through the results in detail, but at first glance they look OK. I'm going to fiddle around with it a little more tomorrow. In the meantime if you get a chance let me know what you think.

[Bueller_007]

The go-dan thing looks like it'd probably work reasonably well.

One issue you'd have with this though is for example, if you searched for "読み*", 読み物 would also show up, which wouldn't really count as a verb use. So you'd be getting into false-positive territory.

EDIT: Actually, I just checked for this, and I was wrong.
"読み*" = 2,720,000 hits
"読み物" = 1,630,000 hits
So you'd expect a search for "読み*" -"読み物" to give 1,090,000 hits, but in actuality it gives 2,680,000. That means that the original 2,720,000 hits for "読み*" don't include 読み物.

A quick check reveals that 読み* hits also don't include 読みます.

The wild card marker appears to be pretty much useless when used in mid-word position.