Still confused by particles.

[WCR91]

Hello, everyone! It's been a significant about of time since my last post, and I've learned a lot since then.

HOWEVER.
The one part of Japanese that has really been getting me down is the particles. I have several issues of confusion.

1) Wa and Ga
-I mainly understand the difference between these two. However, by someone just saying "wa is a topic marker", "ga is the subject marker", that doesn't clear anything up for me because on most occasions, the topic and the subject appear indistinguishable. I was once told that the subject should be treated as something already introduced into the conversation, or a neutral observation, while the topic should be some other point that you'd like to add. I'll give an example. (Sorry for the elitists, I don't have the Japanese IME on this computer, so it will be romaji only.)

CONTRAST
Ex: "Ame ga futte imasu."
It's raining.
(But the counterparts should use "wa", so I'm told.)
Ex: "Ame wa futte imasen."
It's not raining.

TOPIC/SUBJECT
Person 1: "Watashi wa nihonryouri ga suki desu."
[As for me,] I like Japanese food.
Person 2: "Sumisu-san wa nihonryouri ga suki ja arimasen."
[As for Mr. Smith,] He doesn't like Japanese food.
To my understanding, "nihonryouri" (the japanese food) is the subject, because it's used in every sentence, and names like "I" and "Mr. Smith" are topics because wa is used with the connotation of "as for..."

Is this right?

2) Ni and De
-Once again, I *think* I have a fair grasp of this one. "Ni" is used to indicate direction, or going someplace. De is used for as for location and things like that. What I don't understand is what common english prepositions are used in place of ni and de. Here's what I've got so far.

Ni - "to, toward"
De - "at, in"

Normally, I'm okay with which to put in what sentence, but there is a bit of confusion.
For example, "Watashitashi wa dono mise (ni/de) tabemasu ka?" Are Ni and De used interchangeably? I've also heard de being used as "of" and "which material" and things of that nature. I'm completely foggy on that.

3) Ka
-When I say "ka" here, I don't mean the question mark particle "ka" as in "Kore wa nan desu ka?", I mean "or".

Ex: "Banana ka ringo o kaimashou." (Let's buy bananas or apples.)
Just someone verify if I'm on the right track with this.

4) Hodo
-The only thing I've ever heard of hodo being used as is "as much as", like "Watashi wa anata hodo isogashiku arimasen." (I'm not as busy as you are.) Once again, I just need to verify if I'm on the right track with this one.

5) Ya/To/Keredo
-The grammar book that I have says that ALL three of these are used as "and". Can someone tell me when to use which?

I think that's all I can think of for now. As I'm in class, I don't have too much more time to add anything else. (Balancing 10th grade and Japanese is seemingly a miracle in itself.) If I think of something, I'll edit. If anyone can offer any insight, please feel free to. I need all the help I can get.

KANPAI!
Cody

[Jordi]

コヂさん　じゃぱにずぽど１０１へからようこそ！

There's a post detailing many of these particles, I asked the question about a month ago and got a ものすごい answer from Buellerさん here's the link! http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1139 if that doesn't answer all your questions, feel free to ask again!

Oh and by any means if you find my opening remarks in 日本語　wrongly constructed please correct me!

またね

[WCR91]

ジオルディさん！　ありがとう for your link to Bueller's post! I found it pretty informative. However, what I would like to see more of are some examples of the particles being used in a sentence. Just reading a description of the particle's function is still leaving me a bit cloudy. Any takers?

(Keep it restricted to hiragana or romaji, please! I'm only familiar with 4-kyuu kanji!)



コディ

[Bueller_007]

1) Wa and Ga

Don't worry about it. You've got bigger fish to fry at an early stage in learning Japanese.

on most occasions, the topic and the subject appear indistinguishable. I was once told that the subject should be treated as something already introduced into the conversation, or a neutral observation, while the topic should be some other point that you'd like to add.

It seems that you don't understand the difference between topic and subject.

Subject is simply the doer of a verb. Topic is what the sentence is about.

In English, topics are often indicated by sentence stress. "I don't eat fish", with stress on "I" implies that some people may eat fish, but *I* do not. "I don't eat fish", with stress on "fish" implies that you eat many other foods, but *not fish*. In the former, "I" is the topic. In the latter, "fish" is the topic.

"Subject" is a grammatical role. "Topic" is contextual.

TOPIC/SUBJECT
Person 1: "Watashi wa nihonryouri ga suki desu."
[As for me,] I like Japanese food.
Person 2: "Sumisu-san wa nihonryouri ga suki ja arimasen."
[As for Mr. Smith,] He doesn't like Japanese food.
To my understanding, "nihonryouri" (the japanese food) is the subject, because it's used in every sentence, and names like "I" and "Mr. Smith" are topics because wa is used with the connotation of "as for..."

Is this right?

No. Japanese food is the subject, but not for the reason you stated. It is the subject because it fills that grammatical role, not because it is used in every sentence. You were correct in saying that the people were the topics, however.

2) Ni and De
Normally, I'm okay with which to put in what sentence, but there is a bit of confusion.
For example, "Watashitashi wa dono mise (ni/de) tabemasu ka?" Are Ni and De used interchangeably? I've also heard de being used as "of" and "which material" and things of that nature. I'm completely foggy on that.

As I explained in the post that has been linked to above. "De" is used to indicate the location of an action. Eating is an action. So "de" should be used to indicate where it happens.

"Ni" is only used to indicate location when it is *LOCATION OF EXISTENCE*. That means that "ni" only gets used to indicate location when combined with "aru" or "iru".

3) Ka
Ex: "Banana ka ringo o kaimashou." (Let's buy bananas or apples.)
Just someone verify if I'm on the right track with this.

Basically yes. Although I can't testify as to how natural that sentence sounds. Something tells me it's fishy.

4) Hodo
-The only thing I've ever heard of hodo being used as is "as much as", like "Watashi wa anata hodo isogashiku arimasen." (I'm not as busy as you are.) Once again, I just need to verify if I'm on the right track with this one.

Yes, that's grammatically correct, although I can't testify as to how natural it sounds.

5) Ya/To/Keredo
-The grammar book that I have says that ALL three of these are used as "and". Can someone tell me when to use which?

Again, read the link that was posted above.

I'm failing to see a situation in which "keredo" would be used as "and".

[WCR91]

Thanks for your insight, Bueller-san. It seems that my Barron's Guide to Japanese Grammar has slightly misled me. However, I did see a page that is perhaps more accurate than the book. Being a Japanesepod101.com "expert on something", you may be able to tell me the validity of this, also. Take a minute to review this:

[Wa and ga indicate subjects by coming after them. You could say that wa is the "standard" subject indicator. It indicates the general topic and, if anything, emphasizes what comes after it:

Nihon no natsu wa atsui desu. (Summers in Japan are hot.)
In this example, wa tells us that the topic of conversation is summers in Japan, and that the important thing about them is the fact that they are hot.

Kimiko wa mainichi eigo o benkyou shite imasu. (Kimiko studies English every day.)
Here we are talking about Kimiko, and want her diligence concerning English studies to be made known.

Ga points to "active" subjects, emphasized subjects, and subjects within a larger topic:

John ga suru shigoto wa muzukashii desu. (The job that John does is difficult.)
In this one, wa tells us that we're talking about a job, and that it's a difficult one, and ga tells us that it's not just any job we're talking about, but the job that John does.

Ima Seiko ga shite imasu. (Seiko is doing it now.)
This one, which is a reply to someone's question, needs to point to Seiko as the person doing whatever, so ga is used. The thing she is doing is already known, so it needs no emphasis.

Ga is used with simple question subjects in many cases:

Dare ga kono gyuunyuu o koboshita? (Who spilled this milk?)
Nani ga tabetai no? (What do you want to eat?)
Itsu ga ii? (When is a good time?)
And ga is used to emphasize the answers to those questions:

Tommy ga yatta. (Tommy did it.)
Gyouza ga tabetai. (I want to eat gyouza.)
Sanji ga ii. (Three o'clock's good.) ]

For the record, the book uses "keredo" for "and" in this example. (All of the other examples were taken directly from my book.)

"Depaato ni itta keredo, konde imashita."
("I went to the department store, and it was crowded.")

I'm not sure how realistic this sentence is, however. I'll be sure to review your posts on the use of the other ones.


Thank you again for your patience. Although I supposedly have 'bigger fish to fry', I'd still like to get a clear understanding from the start.

[Psy]

Thank you again for your patience. Although I supposedly have 'bigger fish to fry', I'd still like to get a clear understanding from the start.

I'm gonna have to go with Bueller on this one. You don't learn wa and ga by reading endless paragraphs of rules and situations, but rather through experience. It's a fuzzy distinction that will elude you for awhile, but will become more apparent as you progress. The examples above illustrate the differences quite clearly, it's just that English speakers aren't accustomed to making the distinction. Have no doubt, though, in time you will get it.

John ga suru shigoto wa muzukashii desu. (The job that John does is difficult.)
In this one, wa tells us that we're talking about a job, and that it's a difficult one, and ga tells us that it's not just any job we're talking about, but the job that John does.

Whenever you deal with embedded clauses in complex sentences like this, the subject of the clause is always marked with ga. The sentence wouldn't work with a second wa in there. The topic of the sentence is shigoto, and all John ga suru does is tell you that it's John who's doing it.

Ga is used with simple question subjects in many cases:

Dare ga kono gyuunyuu o koboshita? (Who spilled this milk?)
Nani ga tabetai no? (What do you want to eat?)
Itsu ga ii? (When is a good time?)
And ga is used to emphasize the answers to those questions:

Tommy ga yatta. (Tommy did it.)
Gyouza ga tabetai. (I want to eat gyouza.)
Sanji ga ii. (Three o'clock's good.) ]

ga is always used with interrogative words. dare wa just doesn't work unless you were planning on doing a "who's on first?" (or something equally unusual) type of gag.

For the record, the book uses "keredo" for "and" in this example. (All of the other examples were taken directly from my book.)

"Depaato ni itta keredo, konde imashita."
("I went to the department store, and it was crowded.")

Umm... were it me, I'd disregard this one. While the translation still conveys the general meaning, it isn't literal enough for a textbook. I have to say this is the first time I've ever seen keredo translated that way.

[Bueller_007]

Psy got it spot on.

Wa and ga indicate subjects by coming after them. You could say that wa is the "standard" subject indicator. It indicates the general topic and, if anything, emphasizes what comes after it:

No. "Wa" indicates a *topic*, not a *subject*. Important distinction. "Subject" is a grammatical role. "Topic" is not.

However, Japanese grammar allows for ellipsis of the subject (indicated by "ga") when it is obvious from context. The role that "wa" often plays is to make obvious that subject by introducing it as a topic. It can also be used to replace the object-marking particle "o" in the same way.

For example, the sentence "sakana wa tabemasen" can mean both "fish don't eat" and "[I/he/she/we/they] don't eat fish." This is why context is so important in translating Japanese.

Nihon no natsu wa atsui desu. (Summers in Japan are hot.)
In this example, wa tells us that the topic of conversation is summers in Japan, and that the important thing about them is the fact that they are hot.

Yes.

Kimiko wa mainichi eigo o benkyou shite imasu. (Kimiko studies English every day.)
Here we are talking about Kimiko, and want her diligence concerning English studies to be made known.

Yes.

Ga points to "active" subjects, emphasized subjects, and subjects within a larger topic:

Yes. More to the point, "ga" indicates a grammatical subject that cannot normally be omitted. For example, it might be a new, unintroduced topic. Because Japanese commonly omit subjects when they are obvious from context, actually introducing one with "ga" does imply that "hey, the *subject* is important for some reason, because I'm actually bothering to mention it directly."

John ga suru shigoto wa muzukashii desu. (The job that John does is difficult.)

In this one, wa tells us that we're talking about a job, and that it's a difficult one, and ga tells us that it's not just any job we're talking about, but the job that John does.

The reason that "ga" must be used here is because using "wa" would break the sentence into pieces that make no sense. The sentences break down like this:

{[(John) ga suru] shigoto} wa {[muzukashii] desu}.
As for the work that John does, it is difficult.

{John} wa {[suru] shigoto} wa {[muzukashii] desu}.
As for John, and as for the work that is done, it is difficult.

"Ga" (or "no") must be used to indicate *the subject of a verb in a relative clause*. Makes sense. It's the subject of a verb, not the topic of a sentence.

Note that in the first English translation, "the work that John does" is the *topic* and "it" (a pronoun referring to this topic) is the *subject*. Japanese merely omits using a pronoun in this construction, making it appear as if "wa" is directly indicating the grammatical subject. *But it isn't.*

In the second sentence, use of multiple "wa"s also causes a build up of anticipation (looking forward to what you're finally going to say about the topic) that I couldn't indicate with brackets.

Ima Seiko ga shite imasu. (Seiko is doing it now.)
This one, which is a reply to someone's question, needs to point to Seiko as the person doing whatever, so ga is used. The thing she is doing is already known, so it needs no emphasis.

Ga is used with simple question subjects in many cases:

Dare ga kono gyuunyuu o koboshita? (Who spilled this milk?)
Nani ga tabetai no? (What do you want to eat?)
Itsu ga ii? (When is a good time?)
And ga is used to emphasize the answers to those questions:

Tommy ga yatta. (Tommy did it.)
Gyouza ga tabetai. (I want to eat gyouza.)
Sanji ga ii. (Three o'clock's good.) ]

Yes.

For the record, the book uses "keredo" for "and" in this example. (All of the other examples were taken directly from my book.)

"Depaato ni itta keredo, konde imashita."
("I went to the department store, and it was crowded.")

I'm not sure how realistic this sentence is, however. I'll be sure to review your posts on the use of the other ones.

That "keredo" means "but", not "and". And it has nothing to do with "to" or "ya", which join nouns, not clauses.

[WCR91]

Ah! This is great! Thank you guys for clearing this stuff up for me. I also got a chance to speak with my Japanese teacher on some stuff like this, and I'm fairly sure I've got enough to keep going.

[tiroth2]

[quote]{[(John) ga suru] shigoto} wa {[muzukashii] desu}.
As for the work that John does, it is difficult.[/quote]

I think this is a great way to think about it for a beginner: translate wa to "as for".

watashi wa keeki ga suki desu
As for me, cake is good.

And I second Bueller's other major comment to not stress out too much...even 2nd and 3rd year students will still make mistakes with wa and ga, it just takes time.

[Bucko]

With wa and ga, just remember that 'ga' answers the question of 'who', or 'what' is doing the action. 'wa' simply tells us that that such and such is doing something. So with 'ga', the emphasis is on the 'who' or 'what', but with 'wa', the emphasis is on the verb. Here's some points to consider:

1) in a Japanese class, if a student wants to answer a question, he or she will say "sensei, watashi ga!!!". Why do you think the student says "watashi ga" and not "watashi wa"? Because the student is answering a question.

Sensei: dare ga kotaemasu ka? (who will answer?)
Eager students: watashi ga!! watashi ga!!

2) Think about why 'ga' is used after 'dare' and 'nani' in the following questions:
- dare ga kotaemasu ka? (who will answer?)
- nani ga suki desu ka? (what is liked?/ in more natural English, what do you like)

'ga' is used here because the emphasis is on the thing that's being asked about. You can't say 'dare wa kotaemasu ka' because 'wa' puts the emphasis on the verb.

[Bucko]

4) Hodo
-The only thing I've ever heard of hodo being used as is "as much as", like "Watashi wa anata hodo isogashiku arimasen." (I'm not as busy as you are.) Once again, I just need to verify if I'm on the right track with this one.

It might be beneficial to think of 'hodo' as meaning 'to the degree of' rather than 'as ~ as'. 'watashi wa anata hodo isogashiku arimasen' literally means 'I am not busy to the degree that you are'.

Also, you may already know this, but remember that when comparing two nouns (like in your example) the sentence must always be in the negative. Your sentence 'anata hodo isogashiku arimasen' is correct, but had you said 'anata hodo isogashii' it would have been grammatically incorrect.

However, when comparing verbs, both positive and negative are fine:
kono shigoto wa kodomo demo dekiru hodo kantan desu = this job is easy to the extent that even a child can do it. Or, more English-like "this job is so easy that even a child can do it".

[Bucko]

2) Ni and De
-Once again, I *think* I have a fair grasp of this one. "Ni" is used to indicate direction, or going someplace. De is used for as for location and things like that. What I don't understand is what common english prepositions are used in place of ni and de. Here's what I've got so far.

Ni - "to, toward"
De - "at, in"

Normally, I'm okay with which to put in what sentence, but there is a bit of confusion.
For example, "Watashitashi wa dono mise (ni/de) tabemasu ka?" Are Ni and De used interchangeably? I've also heard de being used as "of" and "which material" and things of that nature. I'm completely foggy on that.

ni and de are definately not interchangable. And it might be confusing to think of 'de' as 'at' or 'in'. 'De' means 'by way of' and is used to say HOW something is done.

"Watashitashi wa dono mise NI tabemasu ka" is grammatically incorrect.
"Watashitashi wa dono mise DE tabemasu ka" is correct, and means "by way of which restaurant will we eat".
Answer: "MacDonald's DE tabemasu" = We will eat by way of MacDonald's.

Notice how 'de' just answered the quesion of 'how', or 'the way in which it is done'?

You can also say this:
"ohashi de tabemasu" = I eat by way of chopsticks (means, I eat with chopsticks)
Again, DE has answered how, or the way in which you eat.

"kono machi wa ramen de yuumei desu" = this town is famous by way of ramen (means, this town is famous for ramen noodles).
Here, DE has answered how, or the way in which the town is famous.

Ni simple answers the question of where something exists.
Doko ni sunde imasu ka = where do you live
hon wa doko ni arimasu ka = where does my book exist
Tokyo ni ikimasu = I will exist in Tokyo. Note, this does NOT mean "I will go to Tokyo". NI is not directional, it's locational.
Tokyo E ikimasu = I will go to Tokyo
'e' is directional

[WCR91]

Bucko-san! Your descriptions of all of these particles, particularly that of "wa" and "ga", has really given me a better understanding! It would seem that aside from their grammatical functions, "ga" is used for a more special emphasis, and "wa" emphasizes verbs.

The Ni/De thing is a lot more clear now, too. It would seem that "Ni" is slightly misconcepted when it is said to mean "to".

The "hodo" thing I was never too much worried about, it's just another particle in my book that I was curious about.

Lastly, there are a few questions that remain.
1) Is "de" the usual word for "by" or was it simply contextual with your use of "by way of.."

2) Is the use of "e" more common than the use of "ni"? For example, is someone more likely to say: "Tokyo ni ikimasu" or "Tokyo e ikimasu"?

Thanks again!

[Bucko]

WCR91,

Lastly, there are a few questions that remain.
1) Is "de" the usual word for "by" or was it simply contextual with your use of "by way of.."

Yes, you can think of 'de' as meaning 'by', as long as it answers 'how' something is done. E.g. "he's by the lake" is a different 'by' and doesn't correlate to "de". However, in "I'm going to Tokyo by car", 'by' means 'de'. 'Tokyo e kuruma de ikimasu'.

2) Is the use of "e" more common than the use of "ni"? For example, is someone more likely to say: "Tokyo ni ikimasu" or "Tokyo e ikimasu"?

On Google:
"e ikimasu": 1 010 000
"ni ikimasu": 2 000 000

"ni kimasu": 1,500,000
"e kimasu": 23,000

So I guess the answer is "ni" is more common (I've learnt something new here too)

One last piece of advice, now that 'wa' and 'ga' are semi-cleared up try and forget about them for a while. Just accept the advice you've been given here and if you get a 'wa' when you expect a 'ga' then don't worry about it too much. Then, in six months time you can go over them again.

[Bucko]

I might also add that there'll be times when you get a 'de' when you expect a 'ni'. Usually it's because the translation of the verb in your head is slightly incorrect, or that the Japanese happen to look at a certain concept in a slightly different way to English speakers. Again, it's best to just accept it, remember it, and move on.