ころ and とき

[seanolan]

Can someone explain the difference in using these when referring to a period of time? In English, we would usually use "When..." in both situations. I can't seem to get a handle on the differences in their uses.

Thanks!

Sean

[Bueller_007]

This was explained somewhere else on the forum, but I don't know where.

From Kojien:
ころ【頃・比】
1. 時を、その前後を含めて漠然と指す語。時分。また、年齢の程度。
a vague (i.e. rough) representation of time (including some period before and after that time). also used to indicate age.
2. ある期間。日数。
some period of time. a number of days
3. 時節。季節。
season
4. ある事にちょうどよい時機。ころあい。
suitable/appropriate time

とき【時】
1. 過去から現在へ、さらに未来へと連続して、とどまることなく過ぎゆく現象。
time (in the Stephen Hawking sense)
2. 一昼夜の区分。
a division of one 24-hour day
3. 時候。季節。
season
4. かなり長い期間。おり。ころ。時分。時期。
a rather long period of time
5. 特定の時期。a specific time, such as:
a) その場合。そのおり。当座。
in this/that case/occasion...
b) よい機会。好機。
a good chance/opportunity
c) その場限り。一時。臨時。
the time-being
6. a) 時代。年代。世。
generation
b) 当時。当代。
the time/generation in question
7. a) 時勢。世のなりゆき。
spirit of the day
b) 時勢にあうこと。栄える時分。盛りの時分。
a time when something is in tune with the spirit of the day (i.e. popular or prevalent)
8. 動詞・助動詞の過去・現在・未来の区別。
tense of a verb
9. 世人が話題にする時。その時。この時。
now
10. (連体修飾語をうけ、接続助詞的に) 次に述べることの条件を示すのに使う。…の場合。
in such-and-such an event

[Elfunko]

I dunno if this is right or not, but I've kinda worked out toki as a specific time, where as koro represents a large chunk of time with a beginning and end. Thats my "iyaku" (one's own translation)

[seanolan]

Thanks, Elfunko. That's the kind of situational advice I'm looking for...I understand the dictionary definitions; I don't understand when each is used in the sense of "when I was..." or "when I did..." or "In {summer/winter/etc}time".

Sean

[Bueller_007]

Toki also represents large portions of time, as you can see above.

The only difference is that it's impossible to be precise with "koro".

So 大学生の時 and 大学生の頃 are basically identical in meaning, and you can use them interchangeably.

[Psy]

The other thing, if I'm not much mistaken:

時 = refers to a general span of time.
時に = refers to a specific point during that span of time

[Elfunko]

Psy et al

Everything has meaning through context. You can't ask for a specific meaning without giving a specific example sentence from which to derive that meaning.

From those two kanji, the second with ni, i would say they both have the same meaning, one slightly more emphasized with ni.

"Toki also represents large portions of time, as you can see above."

I would say "Toki can also represent large portions of time..." Just because in that context it can have that meaning, in general it may or may not. All depends on the context though. I dunno, rather than trying to memorize every meaning from a book, go converse with someone in Japanese using one meaning. You'll learn much more and solidify that context. Then converse on another meaning. Or hell, bring all those examples and converse on each and the different nuances they carry. But trust me, don't just read the grammar book (or grammar dictionary), your handicapping yourself for as long as you study alone. Languages are a means to communicate meaning, and you aint communitying *&** by trying to communicate alone.

This is another public broadcast message by Funko, study hard but don't forget to study smart.

[Psy]

For whatever reason I mixed this up with 間 and 間に earlier, so disregard my previous post.

Anyway, while I certainly agree with your sentiment regarding language learning, Funko, not everyone has leagues of foreign exchange students to, well, "utilize" as you do. Studying alone isn't isn't easy, fun, or anywhere near ideal-- but even so that isn't enough to make people abandon learning something they're passionate about. The JPOD community is itself a great example of this. While it's great to know that you have those who will spend time helping you hone your skills, it isn't nice to accuse people who are using the best of the resources they have of not "studying smart."

Sorry if this sounds abrasive but I'm currently one of these people.

PS: The nerd in me says that should be "studying smartly."

[Elfunko]

Hahahaaha. The nerd in me says smartly probably isn't a word, and intelligently should be substituted. Whether or not that changes the meaning (or hell, even if my spelling is correct) I really don't know.

No way man, get abrasive. This is the internet, take everything with a grain of salt. I'm saying even if you live in the middle of a small town in Ohio, theres gonna be Japanese people somewhere, you just gotta find em. Try the college campuses. After that, try the grocery stores. They are usually cool people who are more than willing to be friends with someone who actually has a way to relate (language learning).

I really dont think smartly is a word.... But anyway, do the best you can with the resources you got is all I'm saying. But don't limit yourself when you could have more resources just because you didn't think about it. I'm trying to stimulate that side of the brain in all you guys that says, "Hey, I think I should try to communicate using this stuff!" and maybe some will get out of the computer room and seek out a conversation partner/girlfriend/boyfriend/or something. Something you might not have otherwise done. Think outside the box [that is your home].

As for aida and aidani that is a tough question. Looking through my dictionary at example sentences they can be used interchangebly depending on the context. And there were a whole heck of a lot of different examples. So I'd like to hear about this one too.

[Bueller_007]

"Smartly" is most certainly a word, although it obviously sounds much better in the sense of "he dresses smartly" than "he answered smartly".

And Psy is right about "aida" and "aida ni". "A aida B" tends to indicate that B has exactly the same beginning and end as A, whereas "A aida ni B" indicates that B both begins and ends within the period of time expressed by A.

[Elfunko]

But dressing smartly isn't the same meaning as "studying smartly." Therefore, it's not a word in this context.

A aida B? A aidani B? I'm not understanding these examples. Can we get some sentences and translations?

[Bueller_007]

But dressing smartly isn't the same meaning as "studying smartly." Therefore, it's not a word in this context.

Sorry, context doesn't make or break a word.

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously, after all.

A aida B? A aidani B? I'm not understanding these examples. Can we get some sentences and translations?

That's a rather simple explanation, is it not?

夏の間、キャンプ場で働きました。
I worked at a campground during the summer (from beginning to end).

夏の間に彼女が出来ました。
I got a girlfriend during the summer.

夏の間、彼女が出来ました is incorrect because 出来る is an instantaneous verb that could not possibly have had the same beginning and end as 夏.

[Elfunko]

Now I understand.

What about:

夏の間、彼女が (あってた　・　あった　・いてた　･　いた）？
I had a girlfriend all summer.

?

[Bueller_007]

:D Now I understand.

What about:

夏の間、彼女が (あってた　・　あった　・いてた　･　いた）？
I had a girlfriend all summer.

?

I believe that いた might be okay, but I'm not sure. いる and ある sometimes work in strange ways.

夏の間、彼女が一杯出来てた might also be okay. I'm not sure of the status of ていた forms with 間. Personally, I'd say that the (non-instantaneous) いる verb makes instantaneous verbs okay.