A child'sStory, mukashi banashi

[Psy]

It's entirely possible that I'm not grasping all of grammar-ese up there (stuff like that can get me in English sometimes), but are you not zeroing in on (ウ) and (II) and ignoring the beginning? The bit about 「不利益」is only mentioned in one of the first three notes:

「動詞の連用形に助詞「て（で）」が付いた形に付いて、その動作者が話し手または話題の人物のために何らかの動作をすることを表す。 」

「他者が話し手または話題の人物に、その利益となることをする意を表す。」, "

What I get from that is this:
(auxiliary verbs)
Attached to the verb's continuative form following the particle te (or de), expressing the action of the doer doing something for the purpose of the speaker/person indicated by topic.

Expresses the feeling of the other party doing something towards benefiting the speaker/person indicated by topic.

I've always known くれる as sort-of a less formal way of saying くださる, indicating something being "brought down" and done as a request for the speaker, not the other way around (isn't contempt in giving expressed with ~てやる?). In the case of Issunboushi, the Daijin is overjoyed, so wouldn't it make sense for him to ask Issunboushi to marry the princess? Given the use of honorifics and the general flow of the story here, it just doesn't make sense to me that Issunboushi would be the one saying that.

Just my thoughts. You've much more experience than I so I'm looking forward to your response. Pretty amusing that such a complicated issue should arise out of such a simple story.

[Bueller_007]

Sorry.

This line from your post confused me quite a bit, and I got WAY off on the wrong track

The 大臣 is making a command to an inferior to "humbly recieve" the princess as his bride."

Because you said "command to an inferior, and 'humbly receive'", I thought by this you were implying that the 大臣 was being rude to the 一寸法師 (because he was being ordered to "receive something humbly"). So I thought you were referring to this sense of the word くれる (when used as a standalone verb), which I knew wasn't possible when used as an auxiliary verb:
(2)話し手または話題の人物が他者に物を与える。受け手をややいやしめた言い方。くれてやる。
「五銭の白銅を出して、剰銭(つり)は—・れて来た/多情多恨（紅葉）」「北の部屋にこめて物な—・れそ/落窪 1」

If you had just said that おくれ=お呉れ I would have understood it straight off.

So, yeah, your meaning was right. My last post was just based on bone-headed misunderstanding. But I think the nuance you posted was a bit misleading, unless there's a big difference between くれ and おくれ.

姫を嫁にもらっておくれ。
"Please take the princess as your bride."

It *can't* be the 一寸法師 speaking, because if he were, he'd have to use the causative form: 姫様を嫁にもらわせていただけますか or something.

[Psy]

Ahh, gotcha! I had been trying to go for a somewhat literal translation showing how the verbs もらう and くれる stacked up, seeing as they are essentially opposites of one another. Upon review I can see how my selection of words could have been better-- I'll put more thought into it next time!

Your contributions here are always informative and interesting. Keep it up for the sake of all of us learning Japanese!

[JohnCBriggs]

Let me add this in from a Japanese acquaintanc.
The subject of the story is いっすんほうし (who is miniature) who is being hit on the head by the princess (ひめ) (also referred to in her honorific form as おひめさま) to make him become magically taller and taller (せ が　たかくなり　りっぽな　わかものに　なりました). The “だいじん” ( “minister / superior”) on hearing this is overjoyed when いっすんほうし has become normal height asks the princess to now take him as her partner (「ひめを　よめに　もらっておくれ。」)

The main sentence「ひめを　よめに　もらっておくれ。」is the equivelant of
て + ください but is childrens story book style of writing for a superior or older person to politely make a request (て + おくれ). If it was instead もらって くれ (omitting お ) this would be an angry version (“do it”) !!!! I was also told て+ちょうだい is the casual equivalent. She added いっすんぼうし is meant to be very popular in Japan loved by both children and adults.

[JohnCBriggs]

Buellerさん and Psyさん,
ほんとに　ありがとう　ございます。
You guys went all out to get the answer for this one. At this point I think I can conclude
1) The だいじん　is speaking
2) もらっておくれ is a polite request rather than an order.

In looking through the dictionaries, I wondered if we really know the right Kanji for the verb here. In the posts I see
くれる　=　呉れる (give, let one have)
But in the dictionary I have seen
おくる　＝　贈る (give a person a present)
Do you have a guess which kanji is right? The definitions are very similar. ジョン

[Psy]

Not surprising your acquaintance should hit it on the mark. The only thing I'll note is that in standard "tokyo" dialect, ちょうだい is rather feminine.

Regarding the kanji, yeah, we do know. The only reason there was any confusion is that I worded my translation poorly a little earlier. The correct kanji is 呉.

This thread just keeps being interesting.

[Bueller_007]

Yes, "Psy" is right.

[JohnCBriggs]

OK, I have the answer from a Japanese acquaintance. However, she responded in Japanese so it has taken me a while to understand it. Here is what I get from her.

First, there is no appropriate kanji for this おくれ because it would normally be written as hiragana. This seems to be true for a lot of the helping verbs.

Second, there are two seemingly similar constructions that have dramatically different meanings.
A) ~てくれ (an order from a superior or a senior)
B) ~ておくれ ( a kind request).
What a difference a little お makes.
So the だいじん is not ordering いっすんぼうし to marry his ひめ but rather making a polite request. (as one would expect).

Below I have included some of my acquaintance's response to help clarify this. Also, it is possible I have misunderstood her, so please correct me if I am wrong.
じゃ　また
ジョン

In looking through the dictionaries, I wondered if we really know the right Kanji for the verb here. I see two forms
くれる　=　呉れる (give, let one have)　-----「呉れる」はまちがいです。
おくる　＝　贈る (give a person a present)　-----この英語の　いみは「贈る
でOKです。しかし、「story のcontext　では　この　いみでは
ありません」

((一寸ぼうし　の話の中の「～ておくれ」))

meaning= ～してください。

「くれ」＝　「くれる」の　めいれい形

○社長が　社員に　めいれいするとき
○せんぱいが　こうはいに　めいれいするとき


１．あした　ロンドンに　行ってくれ！（会社で）

２．そこの　しおを　とってくれ！（レストランなどで）

３．そこに　名前を　書いてくれ！


「～ておくれ」

「お」＝　ていねい形

１．どうぞ　おかけください（＝どうぞ　すわってください）

２．どうぞ　おつかいください（＝どうぞ　つかってください）

((　ものがたりの中で　～～おくれ))

～～　してほしいときに　つかいます。おじいさんが、一寸ぼうしに　たのんでいます。「くれ」だけ　つかうと、きつい言い方になるので、「お」をつけて、
やさしく　たのんでいます。

以上です。

[Psy]

Hah, I'm surprised. You don't normally write kanji in verbal conjunctions like that, but I was sure that, if you did, 呉 would have been the right one... then again, she didn't really make it clear in the reply that it was completely wrong, either... I knew おくれ was quite a bit softer than くれ, but I hadn't realized the difference was that drastic. Guess I learn something new every day.

When I feel like spending more time I'l translate that message. Thanks again for posting!

[JohnCBriggs]

Well I finished いっすんぼうし now it is on to うらしまたろう.
Here is a sentence that I am struggling with.
めずらしい　りょうりに　さかなたちの　おどり。
Here is some context
かめに　つれられて　おしろに　はいっていくと　うつくしい　おひめさまが　でてきました。
「よくぞ　かめを　たすけてくださいました。　おれいに　おもてなしを　させてください。」
めずらしい　りょうりに　さかなたちの　おどり。
それは　それは　たのしい　まいにちでした。
I think it is "Fish danced in strange food." but that doesn't seem to make any sense.
Thanks
John C. Briggs

[annie]

Well I finished いっすんぼうし now it is on to うらしまたろう.
Here is a sentence that I am struggling with.
めずらしい　りょうりに　さかなたちの　おどり。
Here is some context
かめに　つれられて　おしろに　はいっていくと　うつくしい　おひめさまが　でてきました。
「よくぞ　かめを　たすけてくださいました。　おれいに　おもてなしを　させてください。」
めずらしい　りょうりに　さかなたちの　おどり。
それは　それは　たのしい　まいにちでした。
I think it is "Fish danced in strange food." but that doesn't seem to make any sense.
Thanks
John C. Briggs

I've got no idea really, but this is how I first read the sentence.
珍しい料理のように魚たちの踊り

The fish's dancing is like a rare food.

(But I'm on that grammar pattern in the English textbook, so that may be why.)

[Bueller_007]

に can sometimes mean "and".

So in this case, it might mean "rare/unusual food and dancing fish", especially if the "rare/unusual" is used to describe BOTH of them. i.e. 賢い男と女 can mean "women and clever men" or "clever men and women".

"Rare food and unusual dancing of fish".

*perhaps*

Again, kids stories are FAR from my forte, as I've proven time and again in this thread.

[JohnCBriggs]

Annieさん,
Thanks for your help. Perhaps your translation is correct, but I must say that it seems a bit strange to me.

Buellerさん,
Thanks for you help as well. I think that if に can mean "and" then this would make sense in context.

If anyone else has an idea I would appreciate it.
Thanks
John C. Briggs

[JohnCBriggs]

I have one more sentence this morning that I am uncertain about. Urashima Tarou is being given the たまてばこ by the princess and is instructed.

「でも　いえに　かえるまで　あけてはいけませんよ。」

My question is about "まで". Does this mean
1) Tarou could open the box only after he got home
2) Tarou could open the box only before he got home
3) Tarou could never open the box.

I had always assumed "3", but the まで confuses me.
John

[Bueller_007]

I have one more sentence this morning that I am uncertain about. Urashima Tarou is being given the たまてばこ by the princess and is instructed.

「でも　いえに　かえるまで　あけてはいけませんよ。」

My question is about "まで". Does this mean
1) Tarou could open the box only after he got home
2) Tarou could open the box only before he got home
3) Tarou could never open the box.

I had always assumed "3", but the まで confuses me.
John

The correct answer is 1), I think, although normally I would put a "wa" after the "made" in this case. Perhaps it was omitted because of the "wa" in "akete wa ikemasen".

Strange, because I also thought that he was given a box he could *never* open. It's an old story, so maybe there are some different versions floating around.