A child'sStory, mukashi banashi

[JohnCBriggs]

Psyさん,
Thanks again for the help. Here are some lines before and after the line in question.

だいじんは　からだは　ちいさいけれど　げんきな　いっすんほうしを　たいそう　きにいり　じぶんの　いえで　はたらかせることにしました。
あるひ　おひめさまが　おまいりを　するので　いっすんぼうしが　おともを　することになりました。
おまいりが　ぶじに　すんで　かえろうとしたときです。
「うまそうな　むすめじゃあ。」
おにが　とつぜん　おひめさまに　おそいかかりました。

じゃまた
ジョン

[Psy]

Psyさん,
Thanks again for the help. Here are some lines before and after the line in question.

だいじんは　からだは　ちいさいけれど　げんきな　いっすんほうしを　たいそう　きにいり　じぶんの　いえで　はたらかせることにしました。
あるひ　おひめさまが　おまいりを　するので　いっすんぼうしが　おともを　することになりました。
おまいりが　ぶじに　すんで　かえろうとしたときです。
「うまそうな　むすめじゃあ。」
おにが　とつぜん　おひめさまに　おそいかかりました。

じゃまた
ジョン

Yeah, OK. There's some context missing in the first sentence, but I'll do what I can:

Even though the energetic Issunboushi was small, the Daijin [context missing] liked him greatly and put him to work at [context missing] his house. Then one day, the Princess went to visit a shrine, so Issunboushi became her companion. She finished her visit safely, but then as they they tried to go home...
"well, ain't you tasty lookin'!"
A demon suddenly swooped down upon the princess.

I wouldn't translate お参りが無事にすんで帰ろうとしたときです directly because it doesn't work. The literal is something like "prayer finish safely, and when tried to go home..." it's in this kind of situation (happens often with Japanese->English->Japanese) where you have to figure out the idea behind the words instead of the words themselves.

You're just minutes away from lots of poking and prodding with a needle. Hope this bit helped-- Mistakes always possible.

Cheers!

[JohnCBriggs]

Psyさん,
Your translation is amazing. Thanks so much for the help here. I need to study it more closely.
じゃ　また
ジョン

[JohnCBriggs]

I spent some time on the web looking for volitional + とする and here is what I found.

家に帰ろうとした時、飲み過ぎたので、道に迷いました。
While trying to get back home, because I drank too much, I got lost.
There is a grammar explanation in the link below that basically says this means "to try".
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/try.html#part3

However, I also found this on the web,...
You might also think of it as 'about to', as in
行こうとしたとき、電話がかかってきた =
"Just as I was about to go, the phone rang."
That supports the idea of "made up my mind" to do something. But I guess this could also be
"As I was trying to leave (the house), the phone rang"
Which is a very common way to express this in (American) English. I think the key to the "trying" is volitional +する, which is more of a doing verb. Expressions that use おもう or かんがえる might be more about thinking.
Thanks for the help
ジョン

[JohnCBriggs]

I also found this in Intermediate Lesson 27
連絡しようとしたんだけど。連絡が取れなくて。
I tried to contact you, but...
Although it was not covered as a grammar point, it seems to show the volitional +とした as "tied".
Thanks
John C. Briggs

[JohnCBriggs]

OK, a new sentence to confuse me.
おには　いっすんぼうしを　はきだし　にげていきました。
How is this different from
おには　いっすんぼうしを　はきだし　にげました。
The sentence seems to mean
The ogre spit out Issunboushi and ran away.
But how does the ~ていく at end impact the sentence.
Thanks
ジョン

[Psy]

I like simple questions. 〜ていく suggests outward action, like going away from the present point in time. In this case it suggests that he's running away for good. Likewise 〜てくる suggests motion up-to the current time, for example 「コーラを持ってきました」(I'm bad at thinking of examples), "I brought a [coca-]cola [back] with me."

[JohnCBriggs]

Psyさん,
Thank you for the explanation.
I think that
もっていく
and
　　　もってくる
are pretty clear to me. But other uses are less clear.
So the ～ていく can indicate physical direction and a direction in time. I didn't know about the direction in time.
The differences between the two sentences still confuses me a little
　にげていきました。
ran away (and will likely not come back)
　にげました。
ran away
Is this right?
Thanks
John

[annie]

often ～ていく　is used to emphasis the going aspect.

I've never heard of it being used as going and not returning, but not a native speaker and with grammar if jr high school kids don't use it than I likely don't hear it.

[JohnCBriggs]

Annieさん
Thank you for your help.
John

[Psy]

often ～ていく　is used to emphasis the going aspect.

In this case isn't it one and the same? Here the oni didn't just run away, he's running and is going to keep on running. Strictly speaking the meaning of "won't return" isn't there grammatically, but given the context it doesn't seem a far (or unrealistic) jump to make. I'm not a native speaker either (nor have I the luxury of being surrounded by natives 24/7), but that's what I get from it. As always I try to be informative in my posts, but that doesn't prevent mistakes from happening.

[JohnCBriggs]

Peter先生 has given me a little help on this.
First let me say it was not a quick answer. That means to me that the translation into English is not blindingly obvious. Here is a detailed explanation of the ~ていく form
http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson-e32.htm
There are about four different meaning available in the link. For the sentence in question here is Peterせんせい's input.
when i read にげていった i can see him running off into the sunset until he vanishes, so kind a combination of direction, progression, and completion!

This can be contrasted with にげた meaning "just that the subject took off". Just completion with no sense of direction or progression.

So while the ～ていく form is still a little bit of a mystery to me, it is also a little bit clearer.
ジョン

[JohnCBriggs]

Hmmm, not that we needed any more complication, but I am going over Intermediate Lesson 15 (AIBO) and came across this.
おまえはここからにげてきたのか
referencing to the fact that AIBO ran away from the Sony store and wound up at the じいさん house in roppongi hills.
Makes me wonder why it isn't にげていった, instead. I don't think the idea of "progression" works here. I am also confused by the sense of direction. AIBO ran away from the store so way not いく.
ジョン

[Psy]

Hmmm, not that we needed any more complication, but I am going over Intermediate Lesson 15 (AIBO) and came across this.
おまえはここからにげてきたのか
referencing to the fact that AIBO ran away from the Sony store and wound up at the じいさん house in roppongi hills.
Makes me wonder why it isn't にげていった, instead. I don't think the idea of "progression" works here. I am also confused by the sense of direction. AIBO ran away from the store so way not いく.
ジョン

Listened though it-- I could bring up a whole argument about senior citizens' driving rights and the protection of robotic life forms under law, but for now we'll stick to the grammar.

〜てくる and 〜ていく, aside from expressing time either coming or going, also express things relative to the speaker either physically or figuratively. In this case, the ojiisan asked something like, "AIBO, so this is the place you escaped from, eh? [and came to us]" I think the reason 〜ていく doesn't work here is because, relative to the ojiisan, our little buddy AIBO was coming towards him. However, if I'm not much mistaken, if the shopkeeper at the "uwasa no Sony biru" was asking the same thing, it would have been expressed with 〜ていく instead.

Could always be wrong, but it seems an accurate enough explanation.


Cheers!

[JohnCBriggs]

Psyさん,
Thank you for the explanation.
ジョン