BL152 te shimau and sayonara questions

[Belton]

http://www.japanesepod101.com/2007/01/1 ... nspection/

This might be another stupid questions thread!?

This lesson brings up 2 things I've been wondering about.

Where is the implied regret in te shimau? In the action that ended or because the action ended?

For example a penfriend says (real example except I've added word breaks)
すっかり ごぶさた を してしまいました。
which I take as sorry for not writing.
But the thinking behind the phrase and structure interest yet confuse me.
Literally "completely not writing (I have) doing ended"
or is it more of a statement?
I didn't write at all. (implied with shimau this is now ended, and I regret that it happened at all. further implication that I'm sorry. )

And in the dialog why is it 忘れてしまった　and not just 忘れた? I'm afraid I can't really see the nuance. Am I being too literal seeing the しまう　auxilary as being ended / finished?
(sometimes I think I've grasped it then ... no it's gone again. )


Sayanora
I've been taught that this is for farewells or long partings. However I sometimes hear it used much more like a regular English goodbye.
And I have upset someone by using it as I seemed to imply a much longer or complete parting than I meant.
And I have thought myself when it has been said to me "Goodbye (you won't see me again anytime soon)"

How can goodbye be so complex?! How is it used?

[Bueller_007]

IMHO, "shimau" expresses more of a nuance that "something has happened, and now it can't be undone" than just "finished". So that lends itself to being used in cases where someone has regret, because you don't regret things that you can change easily--you change them.

As for "sayonara", yeah, I've also heard it is only for longer partings. But I think it depends on the tone of voice. Cheery "sayonara" = "see you". Not cheery "sayonara" = "goodbye". I get "sayonara" all the time at school.

Again, only my opinion.

[Bucko]

As Bueller said, しまう expresses something that's not retractable. So when you finish reading a book you can use it because you can't "unread" something. When you hurt yourself you can use it too because you can't unhurt yourself. When a shop closes they will often tell you しまってしまいました (しまる + しまう) or more casually しまっちゃたんです (しまる + ちゃ which is the casual form of しまう) because the shop has closed and can't be reopened.

[annie]

I'm not sure that I've often heard 忘れました．忘れてしまいました is a lot more common, I think.

About sayonara.
At the end of the school day all of the students say sayonara as the closing greeting in homeroom. And the students who are lined up as the official goodbye-sayers outside also say sayonara.

Those are both kind of formal situations.... kind of fits with the not cheery=sayonara concept.

[Belton]

なるほど！！
All your replies have been helpful.

I might have finally gotten it.
It the unable to retract part that finally makes sense to me. Everything I've read before has concentrated on ending which seems to have thrown me. There's really no equivalent in my English usage that I can think of to compactly express that sense of "unable to undo".
Oh I could see being able to use this a lot (笑）

Still not clear on Sayonara.
(except for correct spelling! バ〜カ〜)
It seems to be more formal maybe. And as always in Japanese context and intonation is everything.

(Official goodbye-sayers! Japanese school seems much more civilised than the scrum to get home I was used to!)

In the meantime I'll stick to じゃまた、or また来週。and save my さよなら　for leaving Japan or friends leaving for Japan. (except as I said I still got into trouble there)

I always listen to opinions. From the amount of help you give around here your opinions carry a lot of weight Bueller-san.

[Bucko]

I say sayonara to all my Japanese colleagues and they don't blink an eye. They say it to me too. So does my Japanese teacher. I think you're delving too deep into something that isn't really that relevant.

[Bueller_007]

I always listen to opinions. From the amount of help you give around here your opinions carry a lot of weight Bueller-san.

Thanks... But really, stuff like "sayonara" is stuff I still wonder about too.

I'm still wondering why I get "sayonara" instead of "otsukaresama" when I finish work.

[seanolan]

I always listen to opinions. From the amount of help you give around here your opinions carry a lot of weight Bueller-san.

Nah, we just can't get him to be quiet!

(Like I have any room to comment, with my 1.5% of total posts on here, despite only 4 months on here!)

I'm still wondering why I get "sayonara" instead of "otsukaresama" when I finish work.

I usually get "otsukaresama'd" when I leave two of my schools, but there is one school where all the teachers, and a few teachers even at the two usual schools, who always "sayonara" me. I am wondering if it is a youth/age thing? Perhaps sayonara is more common among younger people? At first I was worried about it, since "otsukarasama" has the implication that you have done a good job, but I've seen many teachers and workers get "sayonara" also. It might also be an in group vs. out group thing, with people using "otsukarasama" to closer intimates?

Now I'm gonna haveta start paying attention. Durn it.

Sean

[annie]

I never get sayonara-ed at school, except by the students.

I get either otsukaresama or itte rasshai from the other staff. (I've been here for less than 4 months)

For awhile I was getting "Wow, your Japanese is great. I thought you were Japanese." when I'd say goodbye to people who weren't looking at me... back when I could still impress with お先に失礼します。

Official goodbye-sayers! Japanese school seems much more civilised than the scrum to get home I was used to!)

Here at Japanese school we at least pretend to be really civilized. It's more that life is full of set phrases and procedures that must be followed