Question about particles に and で.

[SGenier]

今晩は、

I can't understand, when talking about a location, when に should be used or で.

For exemple, in beginner lesson 42 :
家にいます。
and
家で麻雀します。

What is the diffence in meaning between 家に and 家で ? Are they interchangeable ? When to use which ?

有難う in advance.

[Comazon]

I'm going to take a stab at it, though I too am not 100% sure (sorry). Anyway...

Let's just assume that we're talking about "me/I/私" (since that wasn't defined in the sentence) to make it easier.

For the first one:

家にいます。

would literally translate into "I exist in/at the house." You use the particle に to indicate the existence of people or things in a certain place. If all they do is exist, use に.

If you want to indicate where an action took place, however, you need to use で (if that action is other than existing).

So for the 2nd one:

家で麻雀します。

"I play Mahjong at the house." I am doing an action and want to state the particular place where it occurs. Therefore, I use で.

That's the way I think it is anyway. Someone help verify/correct me please. I'm still learning

[Bueller_007]

That's the way I think it is anyway. Someone help verify/correct me please. I'm still learning

Nope, you're right.

で indicates where an action takes place, and に indicates where something exists.

[Girumon]

The problem is telling what counts as action and what doesnt...actually I guess its more of a problem with ga and wo with me.

For example, if I had to guess between -ga wakarimasu and -wo wakarimasu simply by the usually told fact that wo is a direct object particle and ga isnt, I wouldve picked wo wakarimasu. But its ga.

[Comazon]

Yes, I've been confused on this as well...

Some other verbs that use "ga" are:

hoshii (to want)
kikoeru (to be able to hear)
iru (to need)
mieru (to be able to see)
kirai (to hate)
suki (to like)
wakaru (to understand)

Other than that, it seems to be wo (or wa perhaps, depending on the sentence).

If you study them enough, you can kind of see a pattern. The participle "ga" seems to be used when expressing desire (hoshii), ability (mieru), need (iru), or opinion (suki). I don't know where wakaru is supposed to fit in there...ability?

Once you fully recognize the pattern, I'm assuming it's just a matter of memorizing it cold (which is something I am FAR from doing).

[seanolan]

wakaru literally means to understand and also to BE understood. The more common form I always see is 分かる, which means to be understood (to understand is 判る, and I almost never see this). Ok, so if you use "be understood", then the subject is always the thing that is understood, not the being that does the understanding.

The literal translation of something like これが分かりました is not "I understood that" but rather "that is understood". So that is the reason you use "ga" with "wakaru".

We often see (only in lessons! nobody talks like this!) the phrase "Watashi wa _____ ga wakarimasu" or some such, and since we translate this as "I understand _______" we think "I" is the subject, especially since we used "wa" as the particle. However, in this sentence, "wa" is actually replacing "ni", the indirect object or target of the verb. "Watashi NI ________ ga wakarimasu." "________ is understood/understandable BY me." But of course, we don't talk like this so it becomes "I understand _________".

This usage is VERY understandable when you think about how Japanese culture has caused the language to be constructed...whenever possible, the Japanese language eliminates the first person (and second person also) as a subject...it is not proper to refer to one's own accomplishments in most ways; rather, "credit" is given to the action, not the person performing the action. "That is understood" rather than "I understand that".

I suspect "wo" would be fine if you used 判る, but this is not used usually.

Sean

ETA: I just spoke with one of my Japanese teachers, and he confirmed that they almost never use 判る and he says he THINKS "wo" would be ok with it, but that it would sound funny, because they never say it (and it would sound like an incorrect grammar construction). So even with 判る they would likely use "ga" even though it is not technically correct (he thinks).

[annie]

don't worry so much about the particles when you're just starting to learn Japanese.
even if you use the wrong particles, you'll generally be understood.

the more you become accustomed to Japanese the more natural and intuitive they'll become.

[Bueller_007]

I'm relatively sure that all forms of わかる (分かる, 解る and 判る) are intransitive and identical in usage and meaning, with *perhaps* respective nuances of "deciphering", "unraveling" and "discerning" (based on the core meanings of the kanji).