The importance of learning written kanji

[nutts]

Hi all,

So far (in 18 months of study) I haven't really put any effort into specifically learning kanji, although I've tried with the red 'Basic 500 Kanji' book, and flash cards in the past, but:
a) couldn't really get them to stick that way
b) found it tedious and didn't enjoy it at all - it made study boring!

Instead I have preferred to use my study time to use the podcasts and my MINNA NO NIHONGO books (now on book 2) to study vocab and grammar, while also writing emails in Japanese to my friends and watching some anime to get used to the speed and styles of speech.

I've found that through reading emails and other content that I'm slowly recognising different kanji, and as time goes on I'm figuring it'll work more and more just by letting them be soaked up as I study other (more important) things like vocab and grammar. Also as I'm picking up knowledge of some of the radicals, I can sometimes take a guess at meaning that way when I need to.

Anyway, my real point was that, while doing this, I've figured that most of us now use electronic forms of written communication, whereby you type text in hiragana, and it converts it into the kanji form. Now whilst I realise that you need to recognise which kanji are which from the homonyms when you do this, I can't really see the point in spending lots of time at the moment learning to write kanji. After all, when I write Japanese it's mostly only ever on the computer, where I have that help.

Am I alone in this thinking, that because of this, I'd rather spend my study time - at least until I reach an upper-intermediate level of speaking and language knowledge - learning the language content rather than specifically learning - rote or heisig or whatever - written kanji?

Cheers!

[annie]

Most Japanese young people are pretty horrible at kanji. Reading messages that friends send me there are often typos. I work at a jr high school and i will often find written japanese mistakes that the other teachers fail to notice.

If your main goal is to be able to communicate verbally in japanese, then don't worry about the kanji. if you'd like to eventually become fluent in reading/writing then you really have no choice but to devote a significant amount of time and energy to learning kanji. And they do take ages to learn. Being able to write kanji isn't as important as it used to be, but it is still a necessity. People hand-write notes here a lot more often then I ever remember doing in the States. And personally, I can't memorize kanji until I've written them a few dozen times, but that's my own learning style. For me, all the different parts of Japanese are tied in together, and they all build on each other. And that's why I think that it's important to learn kanji from the beginning of your Japanese study.

Japanese children learn kanji after they can already speak japanese. And in some ways it probably is easier to learn kanji if you already know the vocab. But, I'm not sure if that's a practical method for us to apply.

[Jason]

The problem with not learning to write kanji is that we don't live in a paperless society (not yet at least). There may come a time when you need to handwrite something, maybe fill out some forms or some such thing, and then you're up the proverbial creek without a paddle. Also, it can help you remember them. In addition to a purely visual/aural association with a character, adding the tactile association can help. In general, the more different kinds of connections the brain can make to something, the better you'll remember. It can especially help with characters that are very similar, like 持 and 待 (though I still mix them up sometimes).

Buellerさん will likely be around shortly to tell you it's a waste of time anyway.

[rainlong]

Hey nutts!

I actually went the other way, with learning all of my hiragan nd katakana, along with some kanji, befor getting down the meat of the grammer and such. I think that this may have to do with learning Japanese in the States, without having any rel contact with Japanese speakers, save for the internet.

Anyway, I find that when trying to learn Kanji, using books that make the kanji look like different memorable shapes really helps. I have usead 'Kanji Picto-Graphix by michael rowley to some degree of success.

If you just aren't getting things visually, have someone describe what they look similar to so you can hear it. That my sound silly, but you may very well be an auditory learner, and it may be far easier for you to learn kanji if it is described to you as you look at it. So start talking to yourself, or get a buddy that has nothing better to do!

[nutts]

Thanks for the replies guys

annie: I've heard similar about some young peoples kanji abilities, and I guess as with me it is easy to become lazy over kanji with computers helping to write them for you.
I think verbal japanese is more important for me to improve right now, as I visit Japan quite often and hate not being able to communicate in the country's native tongue.
After I finish みんなの日本語２ and get comfortable at having learnt (but certainly not mastered) all of that grammar, I'll put more effort into learning kanji (which will inevitably mean learning, slowly, to write it).

jason: agree with what you said. Although currently most of my communication is paperless, there will be times I'll feel like a muppet when I can say something I can't write properly
Also the tactile side definitely helps for learning, point taken.

rainlong: good idea with having somebody describe them to me; now I wonder where can I find such a person?
I was keen when I started learning Japanese to memorise and use hiragana/katakana as quick as possible, which I did. It helped also that my evening-class book was みんなの日本語 which is all in kana and (some) kanji. But I just find the content more interesting than writing kanji on paper, right now at least.

Thanks again. Now waiting to hear what Buellerさん has to say - and of course anybody else who has an opinion, please post!

[Bueller_007]

Buellerさん will likely be around shortly to tell you it's a waste of time anyway.

Damn straight.

Actually, I thought you were of that opinion as well.

Learning to write kanji's all good and fine, but it's such a time-consuming process that it really retards the your Japanese learning, IMO. Learn to read, speak and listen. After you've mastered those, then start learning to write kanji. I'm not anywhere close to that stage yet.

[Jason]

Maybe it's just me, but if I can read a kanji and don't know how to write it (and there are a lot like that), I just feel that my knowledge is...incomplete. It bothers me.

To tell you the truth, I could probably count the number of times I've handwritten kanji in the last year on one hand with fingers left over.

[Bueller_007]

Maybe it's just me, but if I can read a kanji and don't know how to write it (and there are a lot like that), I just feel that my knowledge is...incomplete. It bothers me.

That is frustrating, I agree. And there's definitely an aesthetic pleasure that comes with drawing a kanji well.

My opinion is just that the work that goes into learning to draw kanji doesn't really pay off for most foreigners. As you said, the number of times that we are required to draw kanji is so limited. I live in Japan, and I still don't have to do it. Learning to draw is taking time off of your Japanese studies that would be better spent elsewhere.

[annie]

I've started writing kanji a lot more since i've started answering the telephone at work.

I agree that you shouldn't sacrifice your speaking/listening skills in favor of learning kanji. But I don't think you can just abandon an entire facet (is that the right word?) of the language, just because it's mendokusai.

But, I learn best when I write things down, that's probably why I've gotten as far with kanji as I have. I can't just memorize grammar and vocab by seeing it. i've never even considered learning how to read the kanji, and not learning how to write them... the reading & writing are two sides of the same coin for me. and i hate to do anything halfway.

If nothing else learn kanji for the bragging rights.
I love that my ability to write (and read) kanji impresses the hell out of people. I like doing something that a lot of foreigners don't bother with. And I enjoy that I can help my students with their kokugo homework. And I love having Japanese people ask me if I know the kanji that they've forgotten. (recently "kagi" and the "tai" in keitai).