What's wrong with Japanese men/Western women are plain ugly?

[Betty Woo]

There. Made ya look!

I hear and can read a lot about Japanese women dating Western men but, you know, I'm wondering why there aren't more Japanese men - Western women couples.

When I went to my Japanese class opening ceremonies, I counted a dozen inter-racial couples. Every one of them Japanese women/Western men.

So... what gives?

Is there a stigma that Western women have about Japanese men and that's why we don't see many of these couples or do Japanese men not find Western women particularly attractive physically or culturally?

I'm really curious.

Of course, I'm writing from outside Japan. But I have a feeling that on average, even in Japan there is still a big disparity between the make-up of Japanese/Western couples. Or am I completely off?

[Bueller_007]

Many Japanese men expect women to fall into a societal role that Western women feel is outdated and inappropriate.

[Jason]

Many Japanese men expect women to fall into a societal role that Western women feel is outdated and inappropriate.

Yeah. That doesn't fit very well into the whole women's libertion movement in the west.

[Belton]

This is an interesting interview from 1993 about Japanese women dating Western men. It also touches on why Japanese men don't seem to date Western women in general. (at the very end, paragraph 73)

http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersect ... karen.html

The ALTs I've talked to say women ALTs have a hard time finding romance in Japan. (While all the men seem to be chasing Japanese women.)
The one woman I know who had a Japanese boyfriend, pretty much said what Jason-san and Beuller-san have said, they have very old fashioned views about womens roles as far as Westerners are concerned.
I don't think that Western women find Japanese men unattractive. Nor vice versa, it just seems that the social roles and expectations are hard to reconcile.

[Betty Woo]

I thought 'old-fashion-ness' may have been a big reason... .

It's funny that it seems the stereotype that Western women are too progressive leads to disinterest in Asian men while the stereotype that Western men who go after Asian women because they're perceived as being less progressive is strong, too.

My closest contact with this kind of stuff is watching what happened to my North American female colleagues and friends (and sister) intermarry with French men (in France). The guys seemed to *love* the impression that North American women had that go-go-go independent spirit and the women loved the impression that the men were very romantic and put 'family' high on their list of importance - and were pretty good in bed.

But almost all of the couples had problems afterwards because the men seemed to not understand why they couldn't have strong independent women who also liked to cook and clean and have the kids and let them have discrete 'petit affairs' on the side and the women couldn't understand why the guy's 'family' loyalty seemed to equate the men, especially, being tied by the apron strings to their Maman... no matter how old the men were. It must have been big issues 'cause the sex angle of the relationships never seemed to be of much prominence as The Maman.

I guess using that as my basis of understanding, I'm trying to find any reason why a Western woman would want to date a Japanese guy, then (aside from looks and surface personality ).

Poor Japanese guys. From a purely self-interest view, they're sure missing out on something

[metablue]

Perhaps it's also a physical thing. We still have these stereotypes that women are meant to be small and dainty and men are meant to be big and strong. But asians as a group tend to be smaller and more finely built than whites. That fits perfectly for the white guy - asian girl relationship, but works the opposite way for white girls and asian guys. It's a stupid bias, but it's hard to escape from.

Incidently at work we have several asian guy/white girl couples, but the guys were all born in America, so the cross-cultural aspect isn't there.

[Traveller]

This is an interesting interview from 1993 about Japanese women dating Western men. It also touches on why Japanese men don't seem to date Western women in general. (at the very end, paragraph 73)

http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersect ... karen.html

The ALTs I've talked to say women ALTs have a hard time finding romance in Japan. (While all the men seem to be chasing Japanese women.)
The one woman I know who had a Japanese boyfriend, pretty much said what Jason-san and Beuller-san have said, they have very old fashioned views about womens roles as far as Westerners are concerned.
I don't think that Western women find Japanese men unattractive. Nor vice versa, it just seems that the social roles and expectations are hard to reconcile.

どもありがと That article was fascinating. It will be interesting to see how the two cultures interact in the future, especially over the next 50 years. Especially interesting was the diagram of 'desirability' drawn by Mitsuko and the 'pull' of あこがれ. Though I understand she doesn't represent all Japanese women, it would be interesting to know how many Japanese women felt that way.　

Also, what are ALTs?

[Belton]

Also, what are ALTs?

Assistant Language Teacher.
It's what the people on the JET (can't remember what that stands for!) program mostly do.
Help Japanese English teachers out in the classroom.

[Bueller_007]

I *strongly* disagree with that graph indicating that "the best" Japanese women cannot be satisfied with a Japanese man, and the "worst" Japanese men can't find a Japanese woman, so they have to "forced to" turn to SE Asian women.

That's a load of racist BS.

I'm not even gonna bother reading the rest of that page.

[Belton]

As the diagram was drawn by a Japanese, can one be racist about one's own race?

I've also seen it commented that the Japanese can come up with pretty outragous racial claims anyhow without realising they're being offensive and wrong. (I can think of a children's book on sale in a Japanese book store in London that would cause riots if it appeared in a British bookstore.)

The article would seem to more reportage than analysis. It's a transcript of an interview. How representative a single interview is of the majority of Japanese women is debatable. The interviewer does acknowledge this however. It've been more interesting to see a series of interviews.

Given the premise that there's a general desire to marry white men in a section of the female Japanese population, it'd be surprising if racial stereotypes and racism didn't appear. Who knows about the accuracy of the subjects diagram but I see it as an attempt by her to figure out her desire for a white husband rather than some "fact" presented by the author / interviewer. It makes more sense in the context of the interview.

(Ideally love and marriage is about individuals and their uniqueness to each other. Start to bring in the selectiveness of wanting one type, be it race, income, height, hair colour, whatever, and you start to break down the romantic ideal and start to come up with weird justifications for your romantic tastes. I think. )

Japanese women leaving Japan is a phenomenon.
Why should there be such a noticeable inbalance in the sexes when it comes to this? I think this imbalance is why there are more Western men / Japanese women marriages. I'd suspect they are happening more outside of Japan than within Japan. (I wonder what the proportion of white men to women is in Japan) Is it just a dating opportunities thing? Are the people who travel to another country just the cream of the crop? the most adventurous and brightest? or is it the effort spent in cultural/language studies and travel guiding peoples tastes?

I don't buy the Western men are attracted to the supposed passivity of Japanese women claim. It could be just me, I find Japanese women very attractive, but passivity and servility are annoying. Probably my Western liberal upbringing. I don't want some warped 1950's version of domesticity.

aside from looks and surface personality

that's all there is to begin with regardless of race.
Go beyond it and you're into do you like, can you accept, their beliefs and foibles which are probably a product of their culture and upbringing. Maybe if you are both from the same culture and therefore share similar assumptions about the world this is easier.

in the end all I can offer is "viva la difference" !!

[Jason]

As the diagram was drawn by a Japanese, can one be racist about one's own race?

Yes.

[Bueller_007]

As the diagram was drawn by a Japanese, can one be racist about one's own race?

Well, the diagram implies that there is a hierarchy of races (and sexes, with women ranking above men). It says that only the best Japanese women can associate with White men, while the worst Japanese men are "forced to" marry women from SE Asia. So I'd call that racist, yes.

Japanese women leaving Japan is a phenomenon.
Why should there be such a noticeable inbalance in the sexes when it comes to this? I think this imbalance is why there are more Western men / Japanese women marriages. I'd suspect they are happening more outside of Japan than within Japan. (I wonder what the proportion of white men to women is in Japan) Is it just a dating opportunities thing? Are the people who travel to another country just the cream of the crop? the most adventurous and brightest? or is it the effort spent in cultural/language studies and travel guiding peoples tastes?

There are easily many more White guys in Japan than White women. I think it's a combination of factors. Cultural interest due to "nerdy" things like video games, manga, etc. that guys get into more than women; a language that, I think, only the anal-retentive can learn; lots of beautiful women; etc.

The women who leave Japan are certainly not the cream of the crop. No more than the English teachers in Japan are the cream of the crop. They're just open-minded and interested in a culture other than their own.

I don't buy the Western men are attracted to the supposed passivity of Japanese women claim. It could be just me, I find Japanese women very attractive, but passivity and servility are annoying. Probably my Western liberal upbringing. I don't want some warped 1950's version of domesticity.

I agree. And most men in Japan would agree with you. Their passivity and reluctance to tell you what they really feel/think is EXTREMELY frustrating.

[tiroth2]

Based on the discussion I would say the graph doesn't refer to "better" or "worse" but corresponds more to "progressive/outgoing" vs. "traditional/conservative". This actually jives with your perception of them being "open-minded and interested in a culture other than their own".

[metablue]

As the diagram was drawn by a Japanese, can one be racist about one's own race?

Well, the diagram implies that there is a hierarchy of races (and sexes, with women ranking above men). It says that only the best Japanese women can associate with White men, while the worst Japanese men are "forced to" marry women from SE Asia. So I'd call that racist, yes.

The woman being interviewed wasn't publishing the graph as fact, she was trying to explain her own feelings. We're all racist and sexist to some extent. It's built into our culture(s), we've been soaking in it our entire lives, we can't escape from it. It's ugly, but at least she's being completely open about it to the interviewer and I think at some point she admits it's not right. So at least she has some self awareness.

The most damaging people aren't the ones who are outwardly and obviously sexist or racist, because you can see it and fight it or laugh at it. It's the people who honestly believe that they aren't biased in the least. People's attitudes come out in very subtle ways that are difficult to pick up if you're not the target of the bias, experiencing it from many people, every day, and yet they'll swear to the end that it's all in your imagination because they're not biased.

It's like when the black guy gets pulled out of the club for questioning because someone was assaulted outside. He says to his white friends "it's because I'm black" and they say "don't be silly, we've been singled out like that before". He tries to explain that it happens every time to him, rather than once or twice to them. They tell him he's being oversensitive because racism doesn't exist anymore. Everyone gets upset. But chances are, it was because he's black. It would make all the difference to say "Yes, it was probably because you're black. It's horrible. I'm sorry you have to deal with this shit."

[CrazySwayzee]

the reason Japanese women go for western men is probably because:

A) Japanese men want traditional "family moms" and Japanese Women know that Businessmen are too busy with their work to care about their wives.

B) the Japanese generally are dependent people and Women are attracted to Men who are independent and Mem who are not affected by criticism. sadly and hardly what you would call an average Japanese male.