stupid grammar questions

[rdesiree]

I see... thanks!

[rdesiree]

皆さん、 surely you were missing my stupid questions...

1)
すみませんが、ぎんこうは　どこに　ある か　おしえて　ください。I don't quite understand the construction. I translate as: sorry, but where is the bank; please tell me. The object of おしえて　should be marked with を, therefore I would put を instead of か before おしえて. I thought that would also magically "nominalize" the whole stuff in front of it. Apparently, it doesn't work like this. What's the か here doing? I guess that my translation isn't correct neither.

2)
わたしは　いしゃに　なり　たいです。 　I want to become together? (You'ld like to answer: just pull yourself...). Maybe the verb is not なる (shouldn't that become なったい?)
The shorter the phrase, the bigger the trouble it causes...

Thanks for helping me

[Bueller_007]

1)
すみませんが、ぎんこうは　どこに　ある か　おしえて　ください。I don't quite understand the construction. I translate as: sorry, but where is the bank; please tell me. The object of おしえて　should be marked with を, therefore I would put を instead of か before おしえて. I thought that would also magically "nominalize" the whole stuff in front of it. Apparently, it doesn't work like this. What's the か here doing? I guess that my translation isn't correct neither.

The "ka" functions as a quotation marker indicating a question. So:
すみませんが、銀行はどこにあるか教えてください。
"Excuse me, please tell me, 'where is the bank'?" if you want to be anal retentive about the translation. But the natural way to say it is "Excuse me, please tell me where the bank is", and I don't see any reason you wouldn't translate it as such.

2)
わたしは　いしゃに　なり　たいです。 　I want to become together? (You'ld like to answer: just pull yourself...). Maybe the verb is not なる (shouldn't that become なったい?)
The shorter the phrase, the bigger the trouble it causes...

Thanks for helping me

"Isha" means "doctor". Not "together".
私は医者になりたいです。
"I want to be[come] a doctor."

[Belton]

2. kanji would help here.

わたし　は　いしゃに　なりたい　です。
私は医者になりたいです。
I want to become a doctor.

いっしょに　(一緒）　is together.
いしゃ　is doctor.

に　なりたい　is I'd like to become. 　masu stem plus tai. 　it's an adjectival form.

1. It sounds right to me.
Excuse me, Please tell me where the bank is.
I don't know why though. (it's late here, my brain is slowing down) Bueller -san will have better explanation I'm sure.
I'd say the か　marks something unknown.

[Bueller_007]

The difference causing confusion here is that we can't say "Please tell me 'where is the bank?'" in English, because our grammar does not allow it. We have to ask "where the bank is". Note that the rule above also holds true if you replace "tell" with "ask"--it has nothing to do with whether you are requesting that the person ask a question or give an answer. It's simply an English grammatical rule. But Japanese grammar makes no such demands, and allows you to insert the question directly.

So in its most direct word-for-word translation, 銀行はどこにあるか教えてください means "Please tell me 'where is the bank?'", but we have to change the order of the words because of the grammatical demands of our language.

銀行はどこにあるか教えてください -> Please tell me "where is the bank?" -> Please tell me where the bank is.

So it helps if you just think of "ka" as being a marker for embedded questions, that is used the same way that "to" is for embedded statements.

財布を落としたことを気がついた。 -> I realized that I'd dropped my wallet.
財布を落としたと気がついた。 -> I realized "I've dropped my wallet".

[rdesiree]

Thanks!
Sorry, how stupid not to read いしゃ, next time I'll look harder.
Yeah, kanji are much easier to read, in the end. I'm really lousy with verb conjugations, but I learned the kanji for all the vocab of JLPT4 (don't ask... by the time I got the difference between "learn kanji" and "learn vocab"...). So, when it's written in kanji, I know at least what we're talking about. When it's only hiragana, like in the actual JLPT exams, I take so much more time to figure it out!

[Bueller_007]

When it's only hiragana, like in the actual JLPT exams, I take so much more time to figure it out!

Yes, those hiragana-only sections are awful.

[rdesiree]

Hi there
I'm going through the past JPLT exams, and I'm able to get ALL the questions where you have to choose between ごろ and ぐらい wrong.
I checked at space alc, and there are some "rules" I came up with, but I'm not quite sure.

1) when there's a time POINT (like: 5時) it's always ごろ, never ぐらい
2) when it's not about time (like: 5 meters long) it's always ぐらい
3) when it's about time, but not xx o'clock, I take the 50-50 chance ?

Why it's 来月の半ばごろ, but 何日ぐらい行ってるの？　
Thanks for help

[Jason]

You're on the right track. ごろ is only used for specific points in time, but it's not limited to just "xx o'clock" expressions. 来月の半ば *is* a specific point in time whereas in the context of the sentence you gave, 何日 is a span of time (not what day). 何日 can mean either "how many days" or "what day", but since we have the progressive 行ってる here, it can't be "what day." It has to be referring to a span of time. Compare these:

-何日ぐらい行ってるの？ = Around how many days will be you gone?
-何日ごろ行くの？ = Around what day will you go?

I'm not sure about how natural that 2nd sentence is though. I'd be more inclined to say いつごろ instead of 何日ごろ. I got WAY more hits on google for いつごろ than 何日ごろ or 何日頃.

And you're right that ごろ is only used for time. Never for anything else. Neither can ぐらい be used for specific points in time.

[rdesiree]

thanks, Jason! Last test I tried, got them all right
Indeed, I translated 何日as "what day". I'm so excited that I actually make SOME sense out of it that I don't look close enough, I think it happens all the time to me. Should start to be more accurate

questions just keep popping up - may I get more help?
そのことを　だれに　聞きましたか．What's the に doing there? (That was the thing to fill in - I chose が, which didn't sound right either, but seemed the best choice - to me, that is.. ) I translated "who listened to that instrument?", maybe that's totally wrong? I pondered こと = thing, but who listens to a thing?

そこの机に　ボールペンが　おいて　あります - is that the vte-aru form with 置く? So: On the table, a pen has been put ?

thanks so much. I promise to make a pause after dec 3rd...

[Jason]

そのことを　だれに　聞きましたか．What's the に doing there? (That was the thing to fill in - I chose が, which didn't sound right either, but seemed the best choice - to me, that is.. ) I translated "who listened to that instrument?", maybe that's totally wrong? I pondered こと = thing, but who listens to a thing?

The に here is the indirect object marker.

Remember that 聞く has 2 meanings. "To listen" and "to ask." From the context of the sentence, "to ask" makes a lot more sense. Let's break this sentence down in detail.

そのことを = "that thing" or here it can just be "that" (direct object)
誰に = "who" (indirect object)
聞きました = "asked"

Since the subject is omitted and it's asking a question, "you" is most likely the subject being implied. So putting it together, we have "Who did you ask about that?" Graphically:

[you]---asked--->[that thing]
_________|
_________|---to--->[who]

そこの机に　ボールペンが　おいて　あります - is that the vte-aru form with 置く? So: On the table, a pen has been put ?

Yes. In better English maybe, "A pen has been placed/left on the table."

[Derek]

そこの机に　ボールペンが　おいて　あります - is that the vte-aru form with 置く? So: On the table, a pen has been put ?

Yes. In better English maybe, "A pen has been placed/left on the table."

Or in Yoda form, "Put on the table, a pen has been."

Wow, I just realized how close Yoda's grammar is to Japanese grammar...

I guess that's just another thing that George Lucas ripped off from Japan.

[rdesiree]

oh boy, totally forgot about "ask" , what a mess I made. THANKS. Yeah, it looks a lot clearer now !

Besides yoda, also the sardinian language (which is not an italian dialect, but a language) uses this type of construction. So, if you come home after an exam, somebody will say: Oh, fine, back you are! Well it went?

I got another problem... they're just lurking everywhere.

毎日 こうえんまで さんぽに 行きます。（Yup, it’s again a fill-in-the-particle-test)　
に? 行きます? strange, it’s not する.
Indirect object? “I go from the park to a walk” seems weird

sanpo is substantive, so it’s not v + ni iku. “every day, I go from the park… strolling”? Shouldn’t that be さんぽ　で? By means of? Maybe it’s a fixed expression, but I found no hits for 散歩にいきます with space alc.

Please...

[Bueller_007]

:P oh boy, totally forgot about "ask" , what a mess I made. THANKS. Yeah, it looks a lot clearer now !

Besides yoda, also the sardinian language (which is not an italian dialect, but a language) uses this type of construction. So, if you come home after an exam, somebody will say: Oh, fine, back you are! Well it went?

I got another problem... they're just lurking everywhere.

毎日 こうえんまで さんぽに 行きます。（Yup, it’s again a fill-in-the-particle-test)　
に? 行きます? strange, it’s not する.
Indirect object? “I go from the park to a walk” seems weird

sanpo is substantive, so it’s not v + ni iku. “every day, I go from the park… strolling”? Shouldn’t that be さんぽ　で? By means of? Maybe it’s a fixed expression, but I found no hits for 散歩にいきます with space alc.

Please...

ALC's search engine is very particular. You have to input the phrase just right.
http://tinyurl.com/yzvum2

There's nothing wrong with 散歩に行く ("to go for a stroll"). I suppose 散歩で行く is also grammatically correct, but sounds as awkward as the English form "to go by strolling".

[rdesiree]

Thanks. Of course, I have still troubles to input the phrases right but I'll try more versions of "my" phrase next time !

new ugly problems:

1) ごめんなさい this one I should know but I just don't get it:
わたしは よく いもうと の　あびました。Where's あびました derived from? I tried あぶ, but that's not it...

2) さいふは どこへか ありませんでした。 Ok, the wallet wasn't there, but へか? Why not どこも? there's no wallet. Or maybe, for a specific wallet that's not Ok, but still ???

3) 母は せいが 高いですが、父とひくいです。Wouldn't 父は be better? One is tall, the other short, why と　?

4) I must have a problem with しる　vs　わかる．I think somewhere that has been discussed, but I don't find the thread (at the time, I couldn't care less - I didn't even know the words... big error ). I thought that しる　is to know, vs わかる to understand, and that the difference is between a moment and a stretch of time (like... I understand japanese, which is a lengthy process ). However,
あ「あしたの 日よう日、出かけますか。」
B「そうですね。出かけるか 出かけないか わかりません I would have put しっていません, so that issue is still unclear to me.

Thanks so much - I don't know what I'ld be doing without the help you all are giving.