Help me Structure my Learning!

[MajinVejitaXV]

I've been a fan of a few things Japanese for some time, mainly video games and anime/manga.

I know, kinda of goofy, but stay with me here.

I've come to respect but question translations recently, and have decided I wish to learn the language for myself. Problem is, I procrastinate and don't really have a structure set out. I'm wondering, can you guys help?

I've been told the ideal path is kana, then grammar, then kanji. I have resources for kana, but what is a good time period to learn each? A week? I have a good grammar site bookmarked on my other computer at work, but what resources would you recommend? And as far as kanji, what method should I use? JLPT?

I wanna try and make some progress without spending money, since I'm a pretty broke college joe who has lots of bills, but once I get past the initial parts (Kana and grammar, maybe JLPT Level 4 to get my feet wet), I'll be happy to toss money towards a couple of well-recommended materials.

I'm currently listening to JapanesePod101 in my car, and it's definitely nice to hear an intelligent, broken down approach to the language. At the same time, I wanna learn more. Help?

Domo arigato,
Corey

[Jason]

I guess my first question would be do they offer Japanese at your college? If so, go enroll.

But, I guess since you're posting here they don't offer it...

[MajinVejitaXV]

I guess my first question would be do they offer Japanese at your college? If so, go enroll.

But, I guess since you're posting here they don't offer it...

Eh, they do, but the closest campus it's taught at is about an hour away, and I'd have to dig up a few extra hundred dollars as well as restructure my work schedule to take it. I may well do so next year, but for now it's kind of an impossibility (I pay my own way, and I'm only 22 so I'm not raking in absurd amounts of cash yet).

So...pretend it's not an option, because it practically isn't

-Corey

[Tiduas]

I can say that i am in the same situation as MajinVejitaXV.
Don't really know what to go for since there really isn't ANY way to study Japanese hear, it's so frustrating.
Just home study left.

[Brian]

I think the most important thing to be concerned about when beginning a language is motivation. You have to check up on this first for yourself to see how much "motivational mileage" your brain has. Is it enough to get through the times when you feel like ripping up your grammar book?

If you've got that sorted out it doesn't really matter what order you do things because you've got to marry the whole thing, she's going to be with you every day even when you brush your teeth! So if your really serious with this girl 「日本語」 then go for it! The great thing about her is she will never drain your bank account since there are so many great Japanese resources available on the web for free.

If you really want to try an organized approach in the beginning (just to see how long it lasts) then take about two weeks to master the kana. Now this is about the only occasion I've gotten much use from a Japanese study book (Remembering the Kana by James W. Heisig) but you can find any old website that lists the kana and then use flash cards to remember them.

Once you've got a firm base in the kana and their corresponding pronunciations then you can do anything you want as long as it keeps you motivated. Download Japanese TV programs; listen to Japanese music, podcasts, anything you can find. Every time you encounter some of the language questions will start to pop up in your head... 'well what is this masu thing they keep ending all their sentences with?' Then comes the hard part... slowly unraveling the mystery shrouding this language from your comprehension.

As soon as you feel comfortable that you're locked in, motivated, and have a very basic understanding of how the language works then start learning Kanji because the sooner you are able to take up the task the easier your work will become. Learning 2000+ kanji is a daunting task when you first start; it's even more daunting when you realize it doesn't actually enable you to read Japanese. But once you've got the first 80 or so kanji down and after staring at Japanese sentences for hours in disgust, you reach satori 「悟り」 enlightenment. The pieces of this giant jigsaw puzzle begin to come together on the board. By now your hooked, studying grammar has become like listening to a fine elucidation by Plato and each new kanji is like deciphering an ancient Egyptian hieroglyph or perhaps a better analogy; discovering a row of chocolate in the candy store.

Now at this point you'd go brag to your friends about your Japanese ability but a little voice pops up in your head speaking in Japanese saying something like: 'always downplay your ability.'

頑張ろうね！

Resources:
http://www.japanesepod101.com
http://www.manythings.org/japanese/kana/
http://japanese.about.com/blkodarchives.htm
http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/
http://wakan.manga.cz/
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html
http://www.guidetojapanese.org
http://www.yuukimaomi.com/blog/index.php
http://www.wadeb.com/cuecard/

[Defrex]

Wow, was that an inspiring post or what? I'm just a beginner myself, but my experience is thus:

When I decided to learn Japanese, I went to the book store, and found a book on Japanese that came with a CD for pronunciation. Well, as interesting as that was to start, I soon realised that it wasn't going to be that simple. I didn't even finish that book. What I've found to be best is coming at it from every angle. I've got two or three podcasts, couple text books, and a couple forums on the go. I'm okay with kana, though I still need to check a character of two now and then. Even so, I'm going to start learning some basic Kanji quite soon (I've got a book in the mail). I'm finding that kana, though good for learning pronunciation, is not great for actually reading any Japanese. Without spaces, the stream of kana becomes unintelligible to me with a low vocabulary.

Also, I'm finding that I can comprehend much better written (romaji or kana w/ spaces) then spoken. I'm trying to use podcasts like jPod101 to help this, but I have a feeling it'll be a long while before the anime I watch becomes intelligible.

That's my experience, for what it's worth.

[Brian]

Wow, was that an inspiring post or what? I'm just a beginner myself, but my experience is thus:

When I decided to learn Japanese, I went to the book store, and found a book on Japanese that came with a CD for pronunciation. Well, as interesting as that was to start, I soon realised that it wasn't going to be that simple. I didn't even finish that book. What I've found to be best is coming at it from every angle. I've got two or three podcasts, couple text books, and a couple forums on the go. I'm okay with kana, though I still need to check a character of two now and then. Even so, I'm going to start learning some basic Kanji quite soon (I've got a book in the mail). I'm finding that kana, though good for learning pronunciation, is not great for actually reading any Japanese. Without spaces, the stream of kana becomes unintelligible to me with a low vocabulary.

Also, I'm finding that I can comprehend much better written (romaji or kana w/ spaces) then spoken. I'm trying to use podcasts like jPod101 to help this, but I have a feeling it'll be a long while before the anime I watch becomes intelligible.

That's my experience, for what it's worth.

mmm そうですね。That's spot on, you have to tackle a language from every conceivable angle; while that makes for a very serendipitous experience it conversely leads to things becoming very complicated and chaotic.

How does one find a balance in language learning? I don't think any set method for learning languages has been able to prevail, the closest thing we have is the immersion method that basically means practice whatever learning methods you can find in parallel with each other. There are days when I'm not even sure what to focus on, so it's nice to have something consistent like JapanesePod101 in a language learning routine.

But if you can handle all the frustration then learn the kanji as soon as you can! It makes things easier and more enjoyable later on. Once you know a couple hundred kanji or so you can jump into reading then you'll know where your weaknesses are and you can address them as they pop up. Of course in the end everyone has to tailor their own approach depending on what level of fluency they are looking for, though I would always err on the side of a focus on reading/listening over speaking since you can always travel to Japan and learn how to speak very quickly, especially if you have a good grammatical foundation.

皆さん、頑張りましょう。

[doriangrey64]

im kinda in the same position, wanted to do Japanese at my Uni but it was cancelled due to lack of interest. They needed a minimum of 6 people for the class and i was the only person that had paid and still wanted to do it.

I am forcing myself to get back into the lessons, i havent listened to one of the jp101 lessons for at least 3 months, i just got really lazy and then just stopped doing them all together.

One more thing when you all refer to kana do you mean katakana? I dont know any of the characters i only know "A.E.I.O.U" in hiragana, i really need to start practicing pronto.

[Jason]

im kinda in the same position, wanted to do Japanese at my Uni but it was cancelled due to lack of interest. They needed a minimum of 6 people for the class and i was the only person that had paid and still wanted to do it.

You should get ahold of the teacher. They may be willing to work out some kind of private tutoring with you if you'd like.

One more thing when you all refer to kana do you mean katakana? I dont know any of the characters i only know "A.E.I.O.U" in hiragana, i really need to start practicing pronto.

The word, kana, is used to refer to hirgana and katakana collectively. If you want to talk about both of them at the same time, it's a lot faster to write or say "kana" than "hirgana and katakana."

[doriangrey64]

i dont know if that would be a possibility, because there wasnt any kind of indication that there would be private lessons avaliable if needed. also i dont know the actual teacher, i think it was someone special that came from outside the Uni.

Oh ok, i never knew that. Thanks....

[surGeonFFS]

I think the most important thing to be concerned about when beginning a language is motivation. You have to check up on this first for yourself to see how much "motivational mileage" your brain has. Is it enough to get through the times when you feel like ripping up your grammar book?

If you've got that sorted out it doesn't really matter what order you do things because you've got to marry the whole thing, she's going to be with you every day even when you brush your teeth! So if your really serious with this girl 「日本語」 then go for it! The great thing about her is she will never drain your bank account since there are so many great Japanese resources available on the web for free.

If you really want to try an organized approach in the beginning (just to see how long it lasts) then take about two weeks to master the kana. Now this is about the only occasion I've gotten much use from a Japanese study book (Remembering the Kana by James W. Heisig) but you can find any old website that lists the kana and then use flash cards to remember them.

Once you've got a firm base in the kana and their corresponding pronunciations then you can do anything you want as long as it keeps you motivated. Download Japanese TV programs; listen to Japanese music, podcasts, anything you can find. Every time you encounter some of the language questions will start to pop up in your head... 'well what is this masu thing they keep ending all their sentences with?' Then comes the hard part... slowly unraveling the mystery shrouding this language from your comprehension.

As soon as you feel comfortable that you're locked in, motivated, and have a very basic understanding of how the language works then start learning Kanji because the sooner you are able to take up the task the easier your work will become. Learning 2000+ kanji is a daunting task when you first start; it's even more daunting when you realize it doesn't actually enable you to read Japanese. But once you've got the first 80 or so kanji down and after staring at Japanese sentences for hours in disgust, you reach satori 「悟り」 enlightenment. The pieces of this giant jigsaw puzzle begin to come together on the board. By now your hooked, studying grammar has become like listening to a fine elucidation by Plato and each new kanji is like deciphering an ancient Egyptian hieroglyph or perhaps a better analogy; discovering a row of chocolate in the candy store.

Now at this point you'd go brag to your friends about your Japanese ability but a little voice pops up in your head speaking in Japanese saying something like: 'always downplay your ability.'

頑張ろうね！

Resources:
http://www.japanesepod101.com
http://www.manythings.org/japanese/kana/
http://japanese.about.com/blkodarchives.htm
http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/
http://wakan.manga.cz/
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html
http://www.guidetojapanese.org
http://www.yuukimaomi.com/blog/index.php
http://www.wadeb.com/cuecard/

seriously, that was very well written, i loved the ending.
i'm a beginner too, so this thread was very helpful for me too, arigatou gozaimasu!

[gryffindor]

Wow...I'm heartened to see that there are so many people here like me. Well, like Majin, I have some constraints that prevent me from taking up a language course.

Like you, I felt like I was losing direction with my DIY language learning. I have just finished learning the Hiragana and am sensitizing my ears to Japanese speech with the podcasts. I also downloaded some JLPT4 Vocab and Kanji lists to learn.

As for the grammar, honestly, I'm pretty lost too as to where I could get started. Has anyone got a good textbook to recommend?

Cheers, let's push each other towards the goal!

I'm still far from being able to understand Japanese drama without reading the subtitles! I can only make out some words and that's all. Perhaps, one thing is, they speak at a natural speed, which is too fast for a beginner like me.

[jacksonboyle]

I am inspired too! I'm getting off the net to go and do some study! And Gryffindor, don't stress about not getting the Japanese in TV programs without the subtitles - I imagine that'll take years to perfect. Not just the speed, but the slang, or it could even be that the actors/actresses have weird accents. I don't know where you're from, but I imagine you're a Harry Potter fan. Imagine a Japanese person trying to understand Hagrid's English without the subtitles - that's not going to be simple. Hermione's probably a breeze though.

[metablue]

Imagine a Japanese person trying to understand Hagrid's English without the subtitles - that's not going to be simple. Hermione's probably a breeze though.

I've started thinking about that all the time now. Keep noticing all the strange constructions we have in English that would be really hard to explain to a foreign speaker. Language is pretty amazing.

Just wanted to add that I started learning kanji, and though I was a bit afraid to start, it makes learning so much easier. Once you can see how new words are built up out of kanji they get easier to remember. For example, a pet dog is "aiken" which is pretty meaningless to an English speaker. But if you know that the kanji for dog has the readings "ken" and "inu", and "ai" is "love" (and there's another kanji for "ai" that means together or companion), then it makes sense that an "aiken" is a beloved companion dog or a pet. It can be fun finding out what the kanji mean for all the words you've already learned.

<edit>
But I just looked up "neko", and there's no "beloved cat companion". A pet cat is "kaineko". The kanji for kai means: domesticate, raise, keep, feed. So a pet cat is just "the cat you feed"!!