Personal language barrier with Japanese politeness

[Charles]

I think I've discovered my main problem with learning Japanese. It's not the study methods or kanji or anything. It's just that, well, I have emotional misgivings about how the language appears structured to "put people in their place." I strongly favor social equality and avoid hierarchies. However, one simply cannot speak Japanese without recognizing a giant pervasive hierarchical social system. Has this troubled anyone else?

I've found that my learning improves when I forget about everything else and just focus on "learning my place." Then all of a sudden everything else starts, well, falling into place. Automatically, it seems, I see the system, who is subordinate to whom, who belongs where, what is polite for them and what is polite for someone else, how they should behave, etc. It's quite an interesting experience.

Then again, I'm kind of sad. This is not the language I thought it would be. I want everyone to be on the same level. Even in the West, I know that's not always the case, but I dream in that direction.

[seanolan]

I felt similarly to you when I first started learning the language. However, as you learn more about the language, you start to see that the heirarchial structure of the language fulfils more of a function than simply "putting someone in their place". For instance, it allows the virtual elimination of pronouns, simply because you can tell by the forms used who is meant to be the subject or topic of a sentence. It allows you to tell what kind of person is speaking in literature, by the level of speech and the masculinity/femininity of the language. And don't think that Japanese is unique in it's heirarchial structure. It may be one of the most structured, but even most European languages aside from English have a formal and intimate way of speech. English also has a less structured but nonetheless heirarchial form of speech as well (think about how you talk to your boss compared to how you talk to your drinking buddies compared to how you talk to a stranger).

While I am all for a classless system, and many of the inherent assumptions, prejudices and demeaning aspects of the Japanese language may bother me, it is useful to realize that not only does it encompass a large part of the cultural mindset of the Japanese (and therefore would be very resistant to change; observe how difficult it has been/still is to introduce gender-neutral language into English {he/she, his/her-self, etc}) but it also actually fills a role in the basic communicative structure of the language and it would/will be cumbersome to significantly alter it.

Sean

[Bueller_007]

I agree with you.

What makes Japanese (somewhat) unique is merely the fact that verbs *inflect* based on level of politeness/respect, not the system of respect itself. English also has plenty of grammatical patterns that are used for this purpose in a a limited number of cases: "I was wondering if you wouldn't mind...", "I was hoping you would be able to", etc. The difference is that there's no inflection involved.

[Belton]

I don't quite have a problem with it I just play along with the game. Prehaps it's easier because it's a foriegn language. I wouldn't do this in English I think.
And maybe it is more of a game than actually feeling inferior or superior; you just present a suitable face to people.

What I do worry about to an extent are the relationships I develop through the language. Am I being too distant if I use masu-desu forms all the time? Too casual or rude if I use plain forms? Am I being held at a distance if masu-desu is used to me? Accepted if plain forms are used? (I have a friend that won't drop san from my name, despite that other gaijin neither use nor are given the san suffix. It bothers/confuses me slightly. まいいか、as they say. )

But I'd say the plain and polite language is a social construction (you need it to be polite and fit in rather than to be understood). Japan is a hierarchical society. Untill very recently it was a feudal society. This is reflected in the language and how it's used. It might change as society changes. Essentially Japanese is for using within Japanese society and with Japanese people rather than as a shared language of non-Japanese. So pretty much that's just how it is, accept it, try to understand it and use it to communicate effectively.

English isn't that egalitarian either. There are accepted ways to speak to royality, clergy, politicians and officials and ways for people in service industries to address customers. For instance I find it rude if someone calls me Belton without any title attached, equally rude if someone who doesn't know me immediatly calls me Robert, especially in a "stranger transaction" like a restaurant. And then if someone does know me, Mr. Belton is far too formal. And there are ways of speaking to go with these.

Maybe Japanese just makes it all the easier since it's much more defined as to what language to use and when.
(and apparantly can get flustered in English when they haven't a respectful form to use. Such as the Japanese who couldn't figure out how to talk to the Dalai Lama, and was a bit shocked at the seeming casualness of the native English speakers. )

[Bueller_007]

Japan is a hierarchical society. Untill very recently it was a feudal society. This is reflected in the language and how it's used. It might change as society changes.

Don't count on it. The Bunka-chou is in the midst of preparing keigo guidelines because 50% of all Japanese they surveyed felt uncomfortable with their keigo, and wished that the government would create a government-standard list of keigo, kind of like the government standard kanji list.

[seanolan]

Japan is a hierarchical society. Untill very recently it was a feudal society. This is reflected in the language and how it's used. It might change as society changes.

Don't count on it. The Bunka-chou is in the midst of preparing keigo guidelines because 50% of all Japanese they surveyed felt uncomfortable with their keigo, and wished that the government would create a government-standard list of keigo, kind of like the government standard kanji list.

This really saddens me. Doesn't surprise me, but it does sadden me.

Sean

[Bueller_007]

Japan is a hierarchical society. Untill very recently it was a feudal society. This is reflected in the language and how it's used. It might change as society changes.

Don't count on it. The Bunka-chou is in the midst of preparing keigo guidelines because 50% of all Japanese they surveyed felt uncomfortable with their keigo, and wished that the government would create a government-standard list of keigo, kind of like the government standard kanji list.

This really saddens me. Doesn't surprise me, but it does sadden me.

Sean

Actually, I'm looking forward to it.

The draft proposal is going to be out in February, I believe.

Incidentally, when they announced their plan to create this, NHK news did a walkaround of the streets of Tokyo asking people some keigo usage questions. Which most of them messed up dearly. I'm apt to believe that a large number of Japanese people would have difficulty with the keigo questions on JLPT level 2.

[Alan]

I'm fine with the idea of politeness levels. I use different levels of politeness in English, it's just not so structured. After all I wouldn't say 'Oi, shove up a bit, you're hogging the seat' to a company director; it'd be more like 'Excuse me, is this seat free'.

Keigo guidelines? I was just saying in the comments section, the other day, that a list of commonly used keigo would be really useful. So this government initiative looks great (assuming I can understand it when it's published). Is it going to cover kengo as well?

[Bueller_007]

I'm fine with the idea of politeness levels. I use different levels of politeness in English, it's just not so structured. After all I wouldn't say 'Oi, shove up a bit, you're hogging the seat' to a company director; it'd be more like 'Excuse me, is this seat free'.

Keigo guidelines? I was just saying in the comments section, the other day, that a list of commonly used keigo would be really useful. So this government initiative looks great (assuming I can understand it when it's published). Is it going to cover kengo as well?

You mean "kensongo" & "kenjougo" (謙遜語/謙譲語, humble Japanese)?

Yeah, it will, as a subset of keigo, I believe.

For example, during the walk-around, they showed people a picture of a business conference. Half of the attendees were from company A, and half of the attendees were from company B. The president of company A was going to make a speech to all people present, and prior to the speech, he was being introduced to the audience by a regular worker of company A.

The question was: "Should the person introducing the president use いただきます or 申し上げます when saying that the president will make a short speech?"

The answer was that he should use 申し上げます, because there are people from their out-group present, and display of respect for others should take priority over respect for one's own boss.

A basic question. Most everyone that they showed getting interviewed on TV couldn't answer it though.

[Belton]

I find it amusing and interesting that Japanese government is trying a prescriptive approach to language. Languages change through use and misuse and external influences. It's slow and unpredictable but it happens.

I can't believe that texts don't already exist or that keigo isn't taught. If it's not being used correctly, it's because it's not being used often enough or it's not seen as important. Things have changed. The social (and physical?) consequences for getting it wrong are probably not as severe as they once were. Especially if no one knows when it's wrong!

Either the prescriptive approach will work.
And if anywhere can do this it's Japan. There will be classes and certificates no doubt.

Or the incorrect forms will become correct over time through usage

Or it falls out of use over several generations or more.

I sort of wonder about the government initiative as well. It sounds like some old guy in a ministry going "The youth today can't speak properly! Something must be done!" I doubt the survey result was a surprise to them, I think it supported an idea already established.
I wonder if the survey wasn't getting aspirations from people rather than a real practical desire to use keigo. I'd also wonder how it was phrased. Is keigo being seen as something someone else uses. Oh that's for businessmen, or I'd like good keigo to be spoken to me.

TV programs and vox pops. They decide what they want to say then go out and get the pictures. There's no scientific enquiry involved. Pictures supporting "people can't use keigo" makes for a much better story.

Mind you if I went out on the streets of London I could probably put together an item on how people can't speak English properly. And if surveyed they'd also say how wonderful it'd be if everyone could and then go on speaking as before.

[Jason]

I can't believe that texts don't already exist or that keigo isn't taught.

It *is* taught, but not in schools. It's taught to businesspeople entering a company.

I personally have a kind of strange love/hate relationship with keigo.

[Bueller_007]

Or the incorrect forms will become correct over time through usage

Probably not gonna happen. For some damn reason we English speakers still can't get it into our heads that the phrase "I and my brother are going to play tennis" is grammatically correct. We deride ebonics, dialects and slang that take the next logical step in simplifying English by doing away with the nominative-objective distinction: "Me and my boys are going out." We still say that use of "ain't" sounds uneducated. We bitch about people who say "irregardless" and "nucular" and "I could care less". Etc.

Even today in Japanese, there are people who realize that saying お愛想で when you want the bill is (theoretically) rude. And that started like a hundred years ago.

Language has the momentum to change, but there are always going to be language sticklers who say that the changes sound uneducated. Especially when it comes to keigo, because younger people (who don't know keigo so well) have to use it towards older people (who usually know keigo, at least much better than young people). So misuse can lead to offense.

[mikuji]

This is an interesting post and I would like to add my comments.

I find it fascinating to observe Japan in the transition from a traditional and somewhat isolated country to a more internationally minded one. JapanesePod101 is a good example of this in the way the native presenters speak and generally behave. It makes a difference that a lot of Japanese people have experience of other cultures now and I would expect many are reluctant to reinstate keigo as a true reflection of the class-based society of old.They just want to use it correctly as a set of standard forms.

After all we do this in any language. In Italian you still address letters to 'Egregio Signore' [Egregious Sir] and the word 'Egregio' is rarealy used for anything else. And in English you still sign yourself as Yours Sincerely whenever you address a letter to Dear Sir (?!?!) or Dear Madam!

I detect, at times, a tinge of snobbism in langauge use. I myself fall prey to the temptation to use erudite English to show that I am classically educated - but on the main it is just a convention. I do, however like the logical structure of grammar and the consistency of its rules so I don't find changes in this direction easy on the ear.

Mind you I don't live in Japan. I don't know how I would react if I were at the receiving of end of some expressions.

Cheers

Mikuji

PS: I thing few people use the 'I and my children..' opening because, actually, the convention requires to put the other person first ('My children and I ...'is much more common). I suppose a remnant of false modesty to match any お願いいたします

[Belton]

Should grammar be prescriptive or descriptive?
Is keigo grammar or a matter of deportment? (In that when it's wrong it's situationally wrong but probably syntactically correct. )

If enough people say "my brother and me" instead of "my brother and I" it's the de-facto standard and the grammarians have yet to catch up. As to sounding educated, I think (in Ireland) instead of seeming educated, it might be seen as "snobby" or stuck up. It's famously how the Queen talks; "my husband and I..." (but then we can have an odd relationship to English usage)
Similar phrases could be "It's me" instead of "It is I" or "Who did you see" instead of "Whom did you see" or "rostrums" instead of "rostra". Maybe it's because educated people no longer learn Latin. And maybe it's only the pedantic that really care.

To come back to Japanese.
coincidentally a Japanese academic (journalist?) wrote about language change in the Daily Yomiuri recently. I found it interesting that similar things happen in daily speech in Japan.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/la ... Y15002.htm

And to come back to keigo.
It sounds to me that the vocabulary is changing through lack of "proper" use. Yes for a long while it'll be rude and careless, until the people that know and care dwindle to a small minority, overtaken by a careless majority. It's a shame maybe, but I think it might be essentially unstoppable despite government initiatives.

But as a student of Japanese, it's all academic really. I have to deal with what is and learn the standard and proper forms which doesn't really bother me. If I want to be a rebel I have English to play with, innit!

[furyou_gaijin]

This is not the language I thought it would be. I want everyone to be on the same level. Even in the West, I know that's not always the case, but I dream in that direction.

"Everyone on the same level", how unbearably boring... The 20th century saw the decay of the class system in the Western world but luckily that will never be more than a formality. Introducing gender neutrality with 'he' and 'she' in English-language books is just another ugly politically correct act (along with 'Season's Greetings' instead of 'Merry Christmas'), totally uncalled for by the language itself. Japanese is lucky is still have its keigo, beautiful and crystal-clear. What is wrong with paying respect where respect is due?