Some minor knowledge gaps in the beginner lessons

[opitzs]

Hi,

I have decided to stay here and really try and get the basics of the language down, as I enjoyed what I have heard so far (although it is strange, that I have to rely on english to learn japanese )
Some minor points though, that came up, as I am an absolute newbie :

Lesson 8: Suddonely all sentences end in 'ne', but there is no explanation for this.
Lesson 9: The numbers are completely forgotten in the trasnscripts
Lesson 11: What is it with this ga?
I obviously thought you began each lesson with Ohio-Tokyo, to kind of link America and Japan, and while I thought it strange, I simply decided I missed the point.
All lessons: It would be nice, if you could say something about the disappearing vowels.
Does only the 'u' disappear? Is there some kind of rule to this? Or is the 'u' always silent?

I guess you didn't treat that (yet, I have listened up to episode 11) for some reason or you just forgot it, because it is so obvious to you (the biggest problem in teaching as I found out).

Other than this I really liked what I have heard and once I have the basics of the language down, I might even begin to dabble a bit in the kanji.

Thanks
Sven

/EDIT: just corrected some smaller mistakes.

[opitzs]

One more thing:

There seems to be a lesson 0 I can't find, as in lesson one Peter says that onegai shimasu was learned yesterday...

Sven

[metablue]

The first lesson was Survival Phrases I. At first they numbered all the lessons in one sequence, and it wasn't until a bit later that they broke them up into Survival, Beginner, Culture etc. That's why Peter refers to the previous lesson in Beginner 1.

Ohio-Toyko lol! You'll find that there are lots of things you don't understand at first and they're not really explained. I still don't know what the intro to the intermediate lessons really means. I usually just leave the things I don't get and come back later. It's really fun when they start making sense because you can see your progress. It can be frustrating to not understand, but when learning a new language you may as well get used to it, right?

Another thing you'll probably notice is that for the first several months they don't translate the side conversations in the beginner lessons, but they do in the later lessons.

The ga/wa thing is really complicated, people tell me, and they don't try to explain it because it's way too advanced. If you search the forums you'll find some explanations. I think I actually posted in this forum requesting a lesson on it.

[opitzs]

Hi metablue,

Thank you very much for the info.

Sven

[metablue]

No problem. And welcome! I forgot to say that. Sumimasen.

I just remembered another one that really threw me for a loop - the "-te" form series of lessons, starting with "The Amazing Robot!". Until then, we were always given an explanation of how each grammatical structure is used. Then came the six lessons on the "-te" form, and it was never really explained! I was thinking wtf? But it becomes clear later that it's used for so many things that there is no simple explanation. Just be prepared for that one.

[opitzs]

Hi metablue,

thanks for the welcome.
I am right now working on the declinations of watashi, it is slow work
I had forgotten how long it took me, until I could read an english book for the first time (and how frustrationg it was), but at least here I don't start with 'This is a ball' or 'This is a chair' so I feel like I'm learning "usable language" and that will get me through those droughts

Thanks again
Sven

[Jason]

All lessons: It would be nice, if you could say something about the disappearing vowels.
Does only the 'u' disappear? Is there some kind of rule to this? Or is the 'u' always silent?

Yes, there is a rule and it applies to both "u" and "i" sounds. Note that this is in general and not a hard and fast rule. If one of these sounds occurs in a syllable with an unvoiced consonant sound, the vowel is also unvoiced (silent) if:

1) an "u" sound occurs at the end of the word
or
2) an "i" sound occurs anywhere but at the end of the word. Sometimes it's unvoiced at the end, sometimes not. It depends on the word.

An unvoiced consonant sound is any consonant that you don't put energy into your vocal chords to make the sound. You only expel air through your mouth. Compare these examples:

unvoiced: s, t, h/f, sh, k, ch
voiced: z, d, w, n, m, j

For example, the "i" in the "shi" of "hajimemashite" is unvoiced because "sh" is unvoiced and it isn't at the end of the word. However, the "i" in "ushi" (cow) is voiced, while the "i" at the end of "yoshi!" (yay!) is not.

The "u" in "tasu" (to add) is unvoiced. All of the "u"s in "susumu" (to advance) are voiced. Both the "u" and "i' are voiced in "sushi."

Again, this is only a general rule. It may not be true all the time.

BTW, Japanese nounds/pronouns technically don't decline.

[metablue]

It seems like it's about economy. What is the easiest way to say something when you're in a hurry. It's pretty easy to give an unvoiced consonant the shape of a "u" or an "i" rather than voicing the vowels separately.

For some reason it's harder to say "yoshi" than "ushi" with a voiced "i". I think your tongue is in already in the right place after the "u", so it's easy to keep the voiced "i". But you have to move it from the back for the "yo" to the front for the "i" in "yoshi", which feels a bit awkward, so the "i" becomes unvoiced.

Hmm. It sounds silly when I write it out, but then lots of perfectly reasonable thoughts do.

[opitzs]

@Jason: Thank you for the info, very helpful!
@metablue: It actually made sense, once I tried to follow my tongue while talking.
It even brought some interesting results, once I tried it in german

Thanks all
Sven

[Jason]

It seems like it's about economy. What is the easiest way to say something when you're in a hurry. It's pretty easy to give an unvoiced consonant the shape of a "u" or an "i" rather than voicing the vowels separately.

I think you're on the right track, but I don't think being in a hurry really has anything to do with it. I think ease of saying it is the key factor. The unvoicing of "i"s and "u"s was probably a natural part of the evolution of the language. If you've ever noticed, people tend to take special care to voice their syllables when being extra polite/formal, so that leads me to think that they were originally voiced. The ease of not voicing them probably became the norm for everyday speech. Kind of like with contractions in English. When's the last time you said "cannot" instead of "can't" in an everyday conversation? But you probably would use it if you were giving a presentation or something to some important people.

Note that these are all my own personal observations and wonderings. I'm no expert in the history of how Japanese evolved.

[metablue]

I think you're on the right track, but I don't think being in a hurry really has anything to do with it. I think ease of saying it is the key factor.

Yes, you're right. I really meant "when you're speaking quickly", which is actually just "when you're speaking normally". All normal Japanese sounds chou-fast to me. ^^

[kc8ufv]

When's the last time you said "cannot" instead of "can't" in an everyday conversation? But you probably would use it if you were giving a presentation or something to some important people.

I use both. They are different levels of importance. Cannot is stressing that an action is not possible for one reason or another, while can't doesn't have that stress.