relative clauses in Japanese

[seanolan]

I get so confused with how to construct these, and I am sure it is quite simple. For instance, "a person/someone who understands English"...would this be "eigo wo wakaru hito"? What about negative "a person/someone who doesn't understand English"?

Recently I tried to tell my students, "if you understand, raise your hand" and since I don't really get the conditional yet (another lesson to deal with) I said "wakaru seito ga te wo agette kudasai" which got responses, so I tried to follow up with negative "wakarimasen seito ga te wo agette kudasai" and got giggles and blank looks. Since this usually means I have messed up my Japanese, I am guessing this is wrong. Can someone explain, in small words for my poor slow head, how relative clauses work in Japanese?

Thanks!

Sean

[Bucko]

I think you've got the relative clause form under control. Maybe someone else out there can explain why your second sentence got weird reactions. It could be that the verb needs to be in the plain form or it could be the wa/ga thing? i.e. wakaranai seito ha te wo agete kudasai? Or it could just be that putting a request in a relative clause form sounds weird?

There are a few different types of conditionals, the one I use most often (and the one I see most often) is the tara type. You say 'moshi', meaning 'if', then you put the verb into the plain past form, and add 'ra' onto the end. So yours would be:

moshi wakaranakattara te wo agete kudasai
(if you don't understand raise your hand)

moshi wakattara te wo agete kudasai
(if you understand raise your hand)

[Jason]

You can think of a relative clause as a verb phrase modifying a noun (or noun phrase). Constructing one is pretty straightforward, but it can take some getting used to since it's so different from English.

1) First, just consider the non relative clause version:
人は日本語を勉強しています。

2) Next, ID the noun (or phrae) of this sentence that will be the the antecedent and the verb phrase. The antecedent will most likely be the topic/subject.
[人] は[日本語を勉強しています]

3) Put the verb phrase in PLAIN form.
[日本語を勉強している]

4) If there are any はs (the particle) in the verb phrase, change these to が. We don't have any here.
5) Stick entire verb phrase in front of the antecendent.
日本語を勉強している人

You now have a spiffy relative clause that you can treat as you would any other noun or noun phrase. Such as:
日本語を勉強している人は格好いいです。

Forming the negative is exactly the same.
日本語を勉強していない人はJpod101.comを聞いたことがないはずです。

What probably got your giggles was step 3, which you didn't do in the negative. Other than that, your sentences are fine.

One last note: the object of わかる is marked by が not を

[Jason]

moshi wakaranakattara te wo agete kudasai
(if you don't understand raise your hand)

moshi wakattara te wo agete kudasai
(if you understand raise your hand)

I wouldn't use もし here. It adds too much uncertainty and sounds really weird in these cases. The students know for sure whether they understand or not. But other than that, these sentences are fine. もし adds an extra degree of "hypothetical-ness" to the sentence. This applies to the other conditionals too, not just 〜たら, btw. Compare these 2 setences.

私でよろしければ、勉強を手伝いします。
もし私でよろしければ、勉強を手伝いします。

The difference betwen these two is subtle, but not insignificant (IMHO). Both of these sentences are very polite. But the 2nd one is even polite because the extra uncertainty that もし adds to "if I am acceptable" makes it sound even more humble.

[seanolan]

One last note: the object of わかる is marked by が not を

Ooops...I knew that; really I did...hey, were you talking to me? I don't see an "wo" as a marker for wakaru in my sentences...?

Seriously, thanks, and you are saying that it should be in plain form, such as "wararanai hito ga te wo agete kudasai"?

Sean

[Bucko]

Yeah I heard that 'moshi' sounds more like 'if, in the case that,...' more that just a simple 'if'.

[Jason]

in my sentences...?

Seriously, thanks, and you are saying that it should be in plain form, such as "wararanai hito ga te wo agete kudasai"?

Yeah.

[Bueller_007]

Personally, I say the following to my classes:
なんかわからないことがあったら、手を挙げなさい。

No idea how correct or natural that is though.

[Jason]

Personally, I say the following to my classes:
なんかわからないことがあったら、手を挙げなさい。

No idea how correct or natural that is though.

The only thing I'd change would be なんか to 何か. なんか doesn't sound right to me here. Or maybe that was a typo.

[Bueller_007]

Personally, I say the following to my classes:
なんかわからないことがあったら、手を挙げなさい。

No idea how correct or natural that is though.

The only thing I'd change would be なんか to 何か. なんか doesn't sound right to me here. Or maybe that was a typo.

Nah, no typo. なんか can be used as a shortened form of 何か in informal Japanese. Or so I've been told anyway.