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A Few Questions on the Beginner Lessons

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Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 22nd, 2006 8:34 am

Jason wrote:
Bueller_007 wrote:
Joey wrote:arigatou gozaimasu Bueller_007-san, would it sound weird if i was an english teacher and i asked my students to repeat a word like 3 times? Like:
Me: everyone say "library"
Students: *say library*
Me: mou san-do onegai shimasu

I'm pretty sure that would be alright.

I don't know. That sounds funny to me. I'd be more likely to suggest 三回言って下さい。

Yeah, I'm not sure how funny it sounds, but yeah, it's definitely not the most natural way to say it.

Your way is better. Or maybe using 繰り返して instead of 言って.

Joey
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Postby Joey » September 23rd, 2006 5:10 am

sorry, Jason-san and Bueller_007, thanks for those answers, but i can't read those kanji. could you please post it again in hiragana (sorry, i'm kanji-illiterate). thanks

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Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 23rd, 2006 6:35 am

Joey wrote:sorry, Jason-san and Bueller_007, thanks for those answers, but i can't read those kanji. could you please post it again in hiragana (sorry, i'm kanji-illiterate). thanks

If you can't read those kanji, you'll have to start using "rikai-chan" for Firefox to really start getting anywhere with your Japanese.

Anyway, Jason said:
"Sankai Itte kudasai." ("Please say it three times.")

I said that "kurikaeshite" ("repeat") might be better than "itte", but I'm not sure about this.

Joey
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Postby Joey » September 24th, 2006 3:33 am

thanks, Bueller_007, i'll have to look into that program, but the main computer i use is the one that my school issued to all of the students this year and i think they made it so that we can't install programs :cry:

Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 26th, 2006 1:51 am

Joey wrote:thanks, Bueller_007, i'll have to look into that program, but the main computer i use is the one that my school issued to all of the students this year and i think they made it so that we can't install programs :cry:

It's just a Firefox plugin. You shouldn't have any problems.

jkid
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Postby jkid » September 27th, 2006 12:47 pm

Bueller_007 wrote:It's just a Firefox plugin. You shouldn't have any problems.


But what if Joey doesn't run Firefox becuase he couldn't install it in the first place? 8)

Joey
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Postby Joey » September 27th, 2006 11:20 pm

i have firefox on my mac but i doubt i'd be able to install a plugin. its allright though, i don't mind copying the kanji i can't read into an online dictionary and figuring it out for myself

Bueller_007
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Postby Bueller_007 » September 27th, 2006 11:31 pm

Joey wrote:i have firefox on my mac but i doubt i'd be able to install a plugin. its allright though, i don't mind copying the kanji i can't read into an online dictionary and figuring it out for myself

For a Mac, plugins are installed into the user's personal space, not into the main Firefox directory.

You should have no problem adding a plugin.

Otherwise, you can download the program JEDict, plop it on your desktop and just browse through that. Double-click on a word you don't know and it will look it up for you automatically.

Joey
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Postby Joey » October 13th, 2006 10:03 pm

i have a new question. the last line of lesson 46 says, わたしがあなたにおしえます。Could someone please help me understand this sentance. i know that it means "i will teach you" because of the translation provided (and i know the words わたし、あなた、and おしえる), but i don't quite understand why the particles が and に are there. Thanks in advance.

seanolan
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Postby seanolan » October 13th, 2006 10:17 pm

In grammatically correct Japanese, almost all nouns and noun-forms will take at least one particle, such as "ga" or "ni" (in common speech, almost all of the common particles get dropped, but this is not technically correct speech).

In the sentence, "watashi ga anata ni oshiemasu", watashi functions as the subject. Who teaches? *I* teach. Therefore, it requires the particle "ga" indicating that it is the subject of the sentence. Anata functions as the object of the verb; in English terms, the indirect object. In the case of indirect objects, the particle "ni" is most often used (think of it as meaning "to" in this sentence...I will teach TO you). The reason we need these is that, since word order is a bit flexible in Japanese, I believe you could say "watashi ni anata ga oshiemasu" - "you will teach me". So if you left out the particles, "watashi anata oshiemasu", it would be unclear who was teaching whom. Of course, the most common assumption would be noun1 does the action to noun2, but to be grammatically correct, you need the particles "ga" and "ni" respectively.

I hope this clears that up.

Sean
ps: forgive romaji, but it's too early in the morning to be "alt-shifting" to get kana on here

Joey
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Postby Joey » October 13th, 2006 10:44 pm

ありがとうございます Seanolanさん (here its 3:30 so i can type in hiragana :) )
i have just have one question on what you said. You said that が marks the subject of the sentance, but i thought that は did that. could you say わたしはあなたにおしえます? or does that change the meaning of the sentance? Also (sorry for another question) in lesson 48 (amusement park) near the end of the dialog one of the sentances is わたしはきょうはのります. how come there are two は's in this sentance? does that just mean that there are two subjects? so does it mean "today, i will ride (on rides)"? Thanks in advance!

Jason
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Postby Jason » October 13th, 2006 11:59 pm

は is the topic marker, not the subject marker. There is a subtle difference between the two that I don't really have enough understanding of to explain properly. Sometimes they're interchangable with very little effect on the sentence, and sometimes they're not. In this sentence, they are.

私があなたに教えます。
私はあなたに教えます。

Here the 1st version lends more emphasis to "I" in "I'll teach you." The は version sounds much more matter-of-factly.

As for your 2nd question, yes there can be multiple topics in a single sentence. Sometimes it helps to think of は as "as for ..." or "concerning ..." instead of just noting it marks the topic. So think of that sentence as "As for me and as for today, [I] will ride." It's horrible English, but it's much closer to the literal meaning. Of course, the better translation is simply "Today I'll ride [whatever]." Here are a few more examples.

私はゲームが好きです。 ("As for me, games are liked"->"I like games")
妹は虫が怖い。 ("As for my sister, bugs are scary."->"My sister is afraid of bugs")
彼には兄弟はいない。 ("As for to him and as for siblings, they don't exist"->"He doesn't have siblings")

The following attempts at further explanation may possibly just confuse you. Read at your own risk. :razz:

In a sense, multiple は collect together the topics into a "pool" of topics that the rest of the sentence pertains to. As a kind of graphical representation of the last example:

{"to him", "siblings"} <- ["do not exist"]

I always hated math, but do you remember the distributive property of multiplication? It's the one that says things like, 4(a+b) = 4a + 4b. It's a similar thing with multiple topics:

"do not exist"{"to him", "siblings"} = {"don't exist to him", "siblings don't exist"}
Jason
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seanolan
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Postby seanolan » October 14th, 2006 12:13 am

Jason hit it on the head by my understanding of grammar. And just to add to the "magical wa" confusion, wa can also be used for emphasis, to distinguish it from something else. For instance (and forgive me, I have not looked at lesson 48, so this might have nothing to do with the sentence in question) as I understand it, if the sentence before was "watashi wa ashita norimasu. Anata wa?" (As for me, tomorrow (I will) ride. What about you?) you could answer "watashi wa kyou wa norimasu" (as for me, (I will) ride TODAY), emphasizing the difference between what you are doing and the person you are speaking to.

Welcome to WA-ville...population, about a million confused gaikokujin. Wait until you hit the times that "ga" should be used, but everyone uses "wa" so you just use "wa" and ignore correct grammar...

Sean

Joey
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Postby Joey » October 14th, 2006 12:34 am

どうもありがとうございます Jasonさん and Seanolanさん! thanks, those explanations really made sense to me.
Jasonさん, yes i remember the distributive property. i don't know how i did it, but i'm a junior in highschool in calculus :shock:! i don't think of myself as smart as rather repeatedly lucky when taking math tests because half the time i don't know what i'm doing in class but then i'll end up with an A :D.
Seanolanさん, yea! i can't wait for more confusing sentances! (why why :cry: )

Joey
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Postby Joey » October 14th, 2006 9:51 pm

i have a new question, but hopefully this is just a quick one.
In beginner's lesson 50 they introduce ともうします as the most polite way to introduce yourself, but in the vocab section they have しょうかいする as "to introduce". Are these the same word, just one is conjugated and the other isn't or am i missing something here? Thanks in advance!

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