ある for people in folktales

[Shaydwyrm]

I started reading the story 雪の上のおじいさん on 青空文庫, and I noticed that it uses ある when referring to people. For example, the following sentences are from that story:

ある村に、人のよいおじいさんがありました。

しくしくと泣いている子供のあることに気づきませんでした。

しかし、世間には、怖ろしい鬼のような人間がある。

However the story still uses いる for people in other cases. What's going on here?

Link to the story: http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/001475/files/51073_53367.html

[thegooseking]

Shaydwyrm-san,

I'll admit I'm a little out of my depth here, but this is my read on it.

The first case is a bit confusing, but I think the key is that we're talking about where he is located, not where he lives (although it seems to be implied that he also lives there). It's true that we normally use いる for animates and ある for inanimates, but that's because いる means more "to actively be" and ある means more "to passively be" (the distinction between "active being" and "passive being" is quite a fundamental concept in Buddhism, and therefore in Buddhist-influenced Japan). I think, in this introduction, we're talking about his passive existence in this location, not what he's doing there.

In the second case, I think the ある is referring to the circumstance of the child crying, not the child itself, if you see what I mean. Unlike いる, ある can also mean "to happen" (after all, people don't 'happen' but things do). あること can therefore mean "the thing that happens", so it's like, "I did not notice the thing that was happening".

I think in the third case, we're being a bit more abstract: We're not really talking about horrible-demon-like humans actively existing, but we're saying that their existence is a thing, and because it's a thing, we use ある. Again, we're sort of talking about passive existence more than active existence.

I could be wrong about any of these, though, so if anyone wants to correct me, that'd be great.

小狼

[community.japanese]

Shaydwyrm san,
konnichiwa.
Thank you for your question.
Basically we have to use あるfor living things however, you can use いる instead under particular circumstances.
You can use it in the cases below.

1. When a sentence focus on a person’s existence. It doesn’t care about being alive or not.
2. The place is more important than a person being alive in a sentence.
For example, 当時彼はイタリアにあってデザインの勉強をしていた。
3. When a person is in a particular circumstance.
逆境にあっても望みを捨てない。
4. When a person has a family.
東京に親戚がある。
妻子のある身

ある村に、人のよいおじいさんがありました。

しくしくと泣いている子供のあることに気づきませんでした。

しかし、世間には、怖ろしい鬼のような人間がある。
Those sentences are applicable to No1.

小狼さん、
こんにちは。
どうもありがとうございます。
流石、素晴らしい回答ですね。

Team JapanesePod101.com
Yuki 　由紀

[Shaydwyrm]

Thanks for both of your replies!

I think it will probably take a long time before I can feel comfortable using ある like this myself, except maybe in the family case. That one seems pretty straightforward. At least now I know what to look for!

[community.japanese]

Shaydwyrm san,
Konnichiwa.
Thank you for your reply.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask us again.
Team JapanesePod101.com
Yuki 　由紀