A Few Questions on the Beginner Lessons

[Joey]

In beginner's lesson 47 the first line of dialog is:
きょうはなんのひですか。and that means "what day is it today?". My question is, why is there a の inbetween なん and ひ? doesn't that mean "what's day?" If i took out the の and just said きょうはなんひですか。what would that mean? I'm really confused about this and any information will be helpful! Also, how would you say "what day of the week is it today?" would it be きょうはなんようびですか。or is that not even close?
Thanks in Advance!

[Bueller_007]

In beginner's lesson 47 the first line of dialog is:
きょうはなんのひですか。and that means "what day is it today?". My question is, why is there a の inbetween なん and ひ? doesn't that mean "what's day?" If i took out the の and just said きょうはなんひですか。what would that mean? I'm really confused about this and any information will be helpful! Also, how would you say "what day of the week is it today?" would it be きょうはなんようびですか。or is that not even close?
Thanks in Advance!

Simply put, you can't NOT put the "no" in there.

Some words can combine with "nan"/"nani" directly to create compound question words, e.g. youbi ("day of the week") -> nan-youbi ("what day of the week"). But "hi" is not one of these words. So you need the "no".

[Joey]

ありがとうございます！ Is there any general rule for when you need a の in between and when you don't?

[Brody]

Think of the の in this case as a kind of + symbol or maybe a hyphen (-). The の is used sometimes to create compound words. I don't know if you would call なんのひ a true compound word, but I think it helps to think of it like that. I can't say if there's a definite rule when to use it like this; I think you just have to memorize.

[Jason]

I can't say if there's a definite rule when to use it like this; I think you just have to memorize.

I could be wrong, but I don't there is either.

[Joey]

みんなさん、ありがとうございます。thanks for the explanation Brody-san and thanks for the back-up Jason-san.

[seasurfer]

[
Simply put, you can't NOT put the "no" in there.

Some words can combine with "nan"/"nani" directly to create compound question words, e.g. youbi ("day of the week") -> nan-youbi ("what day of the week"). But "hi" is not one of these words. So you need the "no".

This is ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!! You can choose not to put "no" if you don't want! AND it means the same things.

Joey,
今日は何の日ですか。
ただし、‘今日は何日ですか’も合っている。
Both are right, no worry about it. One of the reason I can be very sure it is right because of my chinese language knowledge, it is perfectly right to use 何日 in chinese to refer to "what day". And there is no such need to put the equivalent of the chinese "の" in this word. The equivalent for the Japanese "の" in Chinese is "之". For those who do not know, the Japanese "の" came from the Chinese "之", which is pronounced as "no" in Japanese.

When it comes to Kanji grammar, Chinese, Japanese and Korean basically share the same rule.

Here is what happened when you do a search on Yahoo! Japan:
何日---10,700,000 results.
何の日---3,610,000 results.

Verdict: There are more Japanese people who use 何日 than 何の日. So, Joey you are right. Just that both will be pronounced differently, yet mean the same thing.
何日（なんにち）, however, this one can also means how many days, depend on the context.
何の日（なんのひ）

Bueller_007, I suggest you to take advance Japanese then you will learn more about Kanji grammar, which is basically not tought in intermediate level.

[Bueller_007]

SeaSurfer, may I honorably suggest that you shut your mouth and actually read what I wrote?

Simply put, you can't NOT put the "no" in there.

Some words can combine with "nan"/"nani" directly to create compound question words, e.g. youbi ("day of the week") -> nan-youbi ("what day of the week"). But "hi" is not one of these words. So you need the "no".

So, as you can see, I was talking about the word "hi", not the alternate pronunciation for the same kanji: "nichi".

I'm fully aware that "nan-nichi" is correct Japanese. So don't purport to tell me that I need to take "advanced level" Japanese classes. (I love how you managed to work an argument from another thread into this one!)

As you might have realized, if you had actually read the original post (which was all in hiragana, not in kanji) that "kanji grammar", if there is such a thing, has nothing to do with his question. His question was about "nan" and "hi". And I answered it. CORRECTLY.

"Nanhi" is not a Japanese word. You need the "no".

"Nannichi" is another matter altogether. I didn't mention it BECAUSE HE DIDN'T ASK ABOUT IT. Had he written his question in kanji, I probably would have.


And FYI, I do take "advanced level" Japanese classes. Just not from Jpod.

Oh, and one more thing, for the kanji expert!
The hiragana for the word "no" doesn't come from that kanji. It comes from 乃.

Cheers!

[seasurfer]

SeaSurfer, may I honorably suggest that you shut your mouth and actually read what I wrote?

Simply put, you can't NOT put the "no" in there.

Some words can combine with "nan"/"nani" directly to create compound question words, e.g. youbi ("day of the week") -> nan-youbi ("what day of the week"). But "hi" is not one of these words. So you need the "no".

So, as you can see, I was talking about the word "hi", not the alternate pronunciation for the same kanji: "nichi".

I'm fully aware that "nan-nichi" is correct Japanese. So don't purport to tell me that I need to take "advanced level" Japanese classes. (I love how you managed to work an argument from another thread into this one!)

As you might have realized, if you had actually read the original post (which was all in hiragana, not in kanji) that "kanji grammar", if there is such a thing, has nothing to do with his question. His question was about "nan" and "hi". And I answered it. CORRECTLY.

"Nanhi" is not a Japanese word. You need the "no".

"Nannichi" is another matter altogether. I didn't mention it BECAUSE HE DIDN'T ASK ABOUT IT. Had he written his question in kanji, I probably would have.


And FYI, I do take "advanced level" Japanese classes. Just not from Jpod.

Well, if he only want to write it in hiragana, then you are right in everything. I am only giving you a suggestion, why are you so angry? Seems that you like to be mean on people?

[Bueller_007]

Your last post was incredibly smug, telling me I was "absolutely wrong", insulting my Japanese ability, and telling me that I need to take "advanced level" Japanese lessons, which was merely a way of trying to make me look bad in the light of me disagreeing with you on another forum.

So don't play innocent.

[seasurfer]

Oh, and one more thing, for the kanji expert!
The hiragana for the word "no" doesn't come from that kanji. It comes from 乃.

Cheers!

What I was saying was the hiragana meaning of "no" came from　之, not how the hiragana character came about. Which is essentially two different issues. I am not a Kanji expert. I have a lot more to learn.

[seasurfer]

Your last post was incredibly smug, telling me I was "absolutely wrong", insulting my Japanese ability, and telling me that I need to take "advanced level" Japanese lessons, which was merely a way of trying to make me look bad in the light of me disagreeing with you on another forum.

So don't play innocent.

Well, may be you should take it lightly, I would not consider someone telling me that I am "absolutely wrong" for something to be insulting of my ability. On the other hand, I couldn't insult you at all, your Japanese level is much better than mine. In fact there is a lot that I can learn from you. Insulting you meaning insulting myself. Cool down man, I was merely suggesting only, as I thought it would benefit you.

[Bueller_007]

Your last post was incredibly smug, telling me I was "absolutely wrong", insulting my Japanese ability, and telling me that I need to take "advanced level" Japanese lessons, which was merely a way of trying to make me look bad in the light of me disagreeing with you on another forum.

So don't play innocent.

Well, may be you should take it lightly, I would not consider someone telling me that I am "absolutely wrong" for something to be insulting of my ability. On the other hand, I couldn't insult you at all, your Japanese level is much better than mine. In fact there is a lot that I can learn from you. Insulting you meaning insulting myself. Cool down man, I was merely suggesting only, as I thought it would benefit you.

Mmmhmm.... I've been corrected many a time on this forum, and I never get angry about it. Jason in particular always manages to keep me on my toes.

Anyway, you raised an interesting point in your first post to this thread.

Now that I've thought about it a little bit, the answer to the question above about which words require a "no" after the "nan" is:

You need a "no" whenever the Japanese kun-yomi is used.
You don't need a "no" whenever the Chinese on-yomi is used.

Generally, as SeaSurfer said, the "nan" plus on-yomi combination is much more common.

[seasurfer]

You need a "no" whenever the Japanese kun-yomi is used.
You don't need a "no" whenever the Chinese on-yomi is used.

I agree, I have been learning Japanese for a very long time. But I had never tought of this issue at all until I see your counter argument about everything is written in hiragana, hence there is a need to add "no".

I really never tought of it before, because I wouldn't write that phrase in pure hiragana, even when i see it in pure hiragana, which is a rare thing (except in beginner book), I would automatically convert it to kanji in my mind. This is really a good discussion, I really learn something today. Thanks for bringing up the pure hiragana issue.

hmmm...I start to feel the interesting part of Japanese word game...

[Bueller_007]

And I've changed my above answer slightly. It's more complicated than I thought.

So 何の is used only when *complete words* follow it. Not merely kun-yomi's.
何 as a prefix is normally used only with on-yomi's.

There's also a difference in meaning between the two.

今日は何の日ですか means "What day is it today"?

The answer that is returned might be "your birthday", "September 19th", or "the day before Christmas". Whatever.

今日は何日ですか means specifically "What day [of the month] is it today?" or "As of today, how many days has it been?"

何 as a standalone is also used to fill in for counters (何名様) and in expressions like 何曜日, where it acts as a "fill in the blank".

何の can't be used like this. So while 何の曜日 is grammatically correct, it means something like "what kind of day of the week", which is awkward.