SAQ #3: "Shiru" vs. "Wakaru"

[Bueller_007]

SAQ #3: What's the difference between "wakaru" and "shiru"?

From ALC:
http://home.alc.co.jp/db/owa/jpn_npa?stage=2&sn=38

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In the following context, "wakaru" and "shiru" and shiru can both be used, and the difference between the two is not apparent.

　　使い方がわからないので教えてください。
　　使い方を知らないので教えてください。

However, in the following context, "shiru" cannot be used, and it can clearly be seen that there is a difference between the two words.

　×説明を聞いたが使い方を知らない。
　 説明を聞いたが使い方がわからない。

　×いろいろ試してみたが使い方を知らない。
　 いろいろ試してみたが使い方がわからない。

In this way, it can be seen that "shiru" means "acquiring knowledge of something", but "wakaru" means "understanding this knowledge, coming to grips with it, and making it one's own". It follows that there exists a natural process in which one must "shiru" before they can "wakaru", and cannot possibly "wakaru" before they "shiru".

　　アメフラシは、その存在は広く知られているが、生態はまだよくわかっていない。

In addition, there are also syntactical/usage differences between the two.

　　知りたい／×わかりたい
　　知られている／×わかられている

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So "shiru" basically means "having been introduced to an idea", and wakaru means "understanding that idea".

[Brody]

Now, can you explain the difference between the negative forms 知らない and　
分からない. Early on in my studies I was often taught that saying 知らない/知りません was impolite, sort of like saying, "I don't know (and why should I?)." I was often taught that you should 分かりません instead. I then asked how you could distinguish this as "I don't know" instead of "I don't understand" (which I say often) and I was told I could add ね at the end.

When is it polite and safe to say 知りません? I heard that maybe it's alright if you don't say it too much. But I don't want to sound rude; would it be alright if all I ever said was 分かりませんね。？

[Bueller_007]

Now, can you explain the difference between the negative forms 知らない and　
分からない. Early on in my studies I was often taught that saying 知らない/知りません was impolite, sort of like saying, "I don't know (and why should I?)." I was often taught that you should 分かりません instead. I then asked how you could distinguish this as "I don't know" instead of "I don't understand" (which I say often) and I was told I could add ね at the end.

When is it polite and safe to say 知りません? I heard that maybe it's alright if you don't say it too much. But I don't want to sound rude; would it be alright if all I ever said was 分かりませんね。？

Yes, I've also heard that you shouldn't say 知らない, because it's rude. But the ALC article makes no mention of this, and there are PLENTY of hits for 知らない in Eijiro, many of them in sentences where I would assume that it was interchangeable with わからない:
http://tinyurl.com/hohr6

I'm really not sure how it works... My personal guess is that 知らない sounds more ignorant than rude, because it means "I've never even heard anything about it", whereas わからない means "I've heard of it, but I don't know much about it" or something.

Not sure.

[Alan]

Interesting point. 知らない sounds to me a bit like 'I don't know & I don't care', which I used to say as a kid when adults were telling me stuff I wasn't interested in listening (僕は餓鬼だったね). I wonder whether japanese children would use 知らない in this situation.

Edit: I've been listening out for 知らない and have heard it in at least a couple of films, where in the context, it mean't "I hadn't heard about that", so I suspect that it can be used, albeit with a hint of abruptness, perhaps resentment of not being kept 'in the loop'. I suspect that intonation & context play a big part in how impolite it might sound.

[Tensei]

I remember in an episode of a show a character was talking to another character about her brother and her, being mad at him, said 兄さん知らないよ！ and was translated as "I dont care about him!"

If thats relevant at all.

[ANDS!]

Im very interested in this conversation as the two verbs it seems there is confusion on are totally different and I cant envision a time they would be used together. Unfortunately I am at work and cant see kana on my computer. Someone want to type out the trouble sentence in Romanji?

[Bueller_007]

Im very interested in this conversation as the two verbs it seems there is confusion on are totally different and I cant envision a time they would be used together. Unfortunately I am at work and cant see kana on my computer. Someone want to type out the trouble sentence in Romanji?

There is no trouble sentence. This is just a discussion of the differences between them.

There is actually quite a lot of confusion about them, and you get that sense much more so when you talk to Japanese people and they confuse "know" and "understand", because they were just translating in their minds from "shiru" and "wakaru" respectively.

[Tensei]

Oh, Ive also heard "もう　しらない！” used in anime, and based on the context, would be translated as "I dont care (about you) anymore!"