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Warashibe Choja problems

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andycarmenjapanese8100
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Warashibe Choja problems

Postby andycarmenjapanese8100 » March 29th, 2014 2:56 am

I45:

Asa kara ban made, Hatarake do hatarake do, binbō de un ga arimasen deshita.

He worked and worked from dawn to dusk, but he was poor and without luck.


Hatarake is in the imperative form, like somebody is making a request, "Please work". What is the "do" that comes afterwards? I don't think I've ever seen it before.

Aru hi no koto desu. Otoko wa, saigo no shudan toshite, noma zu kuwa zu de, kannon sama ni o-inori shimashita.

Then one fateful day when the honest but unlucky man had not eaten or drank and things looked bleak, he prayed to Kannon, the God of Mercy.


I understand "aru hi" means "one day" or "a certain day" but why the "no koto"? That makes it "one day's things". How would you translate "no koto" in this example?

Suruto, yūgata kuraku natta toki, kannon san ga me no mae ni araware, kō iimashita.

Then, when evening came, Kannon, the God of Mercy, appeared before the man's very eyes and spoke the following words.


I think this means, "It is said that..." or "people say that..." Am I correct?

Nanno yaku ni mo tatanai to omoimashita ga, otoko wa, wara o motte nishi ni aruite ikimashita.

He thought to himself, "Of what possible use could this be!", but he took the stalk of straw and headed west.


Nanno - what kind; what sort
yaku - use
tateru - to build

"Nanno yaku ni mo tatanai...." - "what kind of use to not build..." - How do I make sense of this? Does "tatanai" mean something else? I don't understand the particles either.

Utsukushii nuno o mite, samurai wa, uma to kōkan suru yō ni iu to, nuno o motte higashi no hō e itte shimaimashita.

The samurai saw the beautiful cloth, and proposed a trade for the horse.


The "to" here suggests a quotation but "you ni iu" can't be inside that quotation. "You ni iu" is what is said when describing another person's instructions, not your own. The samurai can't say, "uma to kōkan suru yō ni iu" because that doesn't mean, "uma to kōkan shite" - so why does the "to" come after "you ni iu"?

The rich man invited the man back to his house.

Otoko wa chōja san no ie ni manekaremashita.


What is the plain form of this verb and what does it mean? The kanji is "招かれました" if that helps. I can't find it in any dictionary.

Musume san ga, chōja san to otoko ni, ocha o motte kimashita. Nanto, otoko ga mikan o ageta musume san deshita.

When they arrived at the house, a young woman brought the two men some tea. The young woman, daughter of the rich man, was none other than the young woman from the side of the road!


The dictionary tells me that "nanto" means "what, how, whatever" but none of those seem to fit here. Is there a better translation for it?

Chōja san wa, fushigi na en to otoko no yasashisa ni kokoro utare, musume o otoko ni totsugaseru koto ni shimashita.

The rich man was deeply impressed by the man's kindness and the remarkable fate of their meeting, and he gave his blessing for their marriage.


ni kokoro utare - The rich man was "struck in his heart"? Like, he was shocked?

The word order in "musume o otoko ni totsugaseru" is very confusing, why doesn't the direct object ("musume") come directly before the verb? I would have guessed "otoko ni musume o totsugaseru" would be more correct.

Otoko wa, kannon sama ni iwareta tōri, wara i-ppon de chōja ni narimashita.

The man carried out Kannon's orders exactly as he was told, and with just one stalk of straw he became a rich man


The only thing in the dictionary for "toori" is "to pass (by); to go through; to walk along; to pass exams; to attend (e.g. school)", none of those definitions work here. What is a better translation?

Medetashi, mededashi.

The end.


The dictionary says "medetashi" means "wonderful". Is it commonly used as "the end"?

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby community.japanese » March 29th, 2014 3:23 am

andycarmenjapanese8100 san,
1. You misunderstood the word boundary. Hatarakedo is same as hataraita keredo which means I worked hard.
2. Koto is “thing”. Aku hi no koto means “a thing was happened one day”.
3. Yes, your understanding is correct.
4. Yakunitatsu means “useful” so it means it is not useful for anything.
5. Dictionary form + to indicates the time sequence similar “itte”. Firstly the samurai says “exchange the cloth and horse and carries the cloth and go to the East”.
6. 招かれる 招かれます is passive from which means “be invited”.
7. What is a surprising!
8. Kokoro utareru means “be imporessed”. As long as you can use appropriate particles, the word order doesn’t matter.
9. Iwareta touri means “following what someone said”.
10. Yes, that’s the common ending which means “happy ending”.

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby andycarmenjapanese8100 » March 29th, 2014 11:06 pm

Thanks Yuki-sensei.

A few follow-ups...

community.japanese wrote:1. You misunderstood the word boundary. Hatarakedo is same as hataraita keredo which means I worked hard.


Is this unique to "hataraku" or can other verbs be conjugated in this way?

community.japanese wrote:4. Yakunitatsu means “useful” so it means it is not useful for anything.


"Yaku ni tatsu" means "useful" and "yaku ni mo tatanai" means "not useful"? Got it. Searching the internet, I've found "yaku ni tatanai" used as "useless" too, pretty much the same thing without the "mo" - is this acceptable?

community.japanese wrote:5. Dictionary form + to indicates the time sequence similar “itte”. Firstly the samurai says “exchange the cloth and horse and carries the cloth and go to the East”.


That doesn't help. I don't know what you're trying to say.

1. How does "itte" (from "iu" - "to say"?) indicate time sequence?
2. You put, "and carries the cloth and go to the East" in quotation marks, are you saying that this is something the samurai said?
3. I know that "to" and "itte" mean the same thing when indicating a quotation, so why, if this is a quote, is "you ni iu" inside the quotation when it is not something that the samurai actually said? Is there a difference in the way the English and Japanese languages use quotation marks?

community.japanese wrote:6. 招かれる 招かれます is passive from which means “be invited”.


Thanks, what is the plain form of the verb? "Manaku"?

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby mmmason8967 » March 30th, 2014 7:49 am

This is a bit above my level, but why should I let that stop me?

Utsukushii nuno o mite, samurai wa, uma to kōkan suru yō ni iu to, nuno o motte higashi no hō e itte shimaimashita.

The samurai saw the beautiful cloth, and proposed a trade for the horse.

The English translation is incomplete: it stops about half way through the Japanese sentence and misses out this bit:-

nuno o motte higashi no hō e itte shimaimashita.
...[and] carrying the cloth, he went off towards the East.

1. How does "itte" (from "iu" - "to say"?) indicate time sequence?

It's itte from iku, to go. Based on what Yuki-sensei said, the time sequence is suggested by the earlier iu to (i.e. dictionary form plus to, equating roughly to "...said, and then...".

2. You put, "and carries the cloth and go to the East" in quotation marks, are you saying that this is something the samurai said?

There isn't actually a direct quotation anywhere in the sentence. I think the sentence means something like "On seeing the beautiful cloth, the samurai offered his horse in exchange and then headed East carrying the cloth". I'm guessing that the shimaimashita at then end is what tells us that the offer of exchange was accepted.

community.japanese wrote:6. 招かれる 招かれます is passive from which means “be invited”.

Thanks, what is the plain form of the verb? "Manaku"?

Yes, it's manaku.

EDIT: Oh no it isn't. The UK just switched to summer time, and getting up an hour earlier clearly isn't working out too well for me...

マイケル
Last edited by mmmason8967 on March 30th, 2014 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby community.japanese » March 30th, 2014 9:02 am

Andyさん、

Is this unique to "hataraku" or can other verbs be conjugated in this way?
Yes.

"Yaku ni tatsu" means "useful" and "yaku ni mo tatanai" means "not useful"?
Yes.

Got it. Searching the internet, I've found "yaku ni tatanai" used as "useless" too, pretty much the same thing without the "mo" - is this acceptable?
Mo is emphasis.

That doesn't help. I don't know what you're trying to say.
The grammar point is the と conditional. The to conditional implies that the result is a natural or expected consequence of the condition, and is thus the strongest of the conditionals. The to conditional is appended to a phrase in the plain, present tense, which is the condition, and is followed by the consequence.
Examples:
早く家を出ないと電車に間に合わないよ!
Hayaku ie o denai to densha ni maniawanai yo!
"If you don’t leave quickly, you won’t catch the train!"

How does "itte" (from "iu" - "to say"?) indicate time sequence?
That is iku “go”. Te from simasimasu means completed action.
You put, "and carries the cloth and go to the East" in quotation marks, are you saying that this is something the samurai said?
That means the samurai went to the East.

I know that "to" and "itte" mean the same thing when indicating a quotation, so why, if this is a quote, is "you ni iu" inside the quotation when it is not something that the samurai actually said? Is there a difference in the way the English and Japanese languages use quotation marks?
I can’t see the quotation you mentioned.

招かれる 招かれます is passive from which means “be invited”.
what is the plain form of the verb? "Manaku"?
Not manaku but meneku.

If you have more questions, could you please write the story using kanji and hiragana ?
It is extremely hard for me to read romaji and to get the sentence meanings.
kanji tell me the meaning but romaji doesn't.

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Last edited by community.japanese on April 1st, 2014 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby mmmason8967 » March 30th, 2014 6:30 pm

由紀先生 wrote:マイケルさん、

僕じゃありません。アンディさんです。 :)

If you have more questions, could you please write the story using kanji and hiragana ?
It is extremely hard for me to read romaji and to get the sentence meanings.
kanji tell me the meaning but romaji doesn't.

僕もローマジが嫌いです。でも、アンディさんは漢字やひらがなが分かりません。

The sentence that is causing confusion is this one:-
美しい布を見て、サムライは、馬と交換するよう言うと、布を持って東の方へ行ってしまいました。
Utsukushii nuno o mite, samurai wa, uma to koukan suru you ni iu to, nuno o motte higashi no hou e itte shimaimashita.

Andy-san asked:
I know that "to" and "itte" mean the same thing when indicating a quotation, so why, if this is a quote, is "you ni iu" inside the quotation when it is not something that the samurai actually said? Is there a difference in the way the English and Japanese languages use quotation marks?

And then you answered:
I can’t see the quotation you mentioned.

No, you can't, because there isn't one. But Andy-san thought that the sentence said:
美しい布を見て、サムライは、馬と交換するよう言う、布を持って東の方へ言ってしまいました。

This looks a bit like a 「〇〇と言って」 quotation. However, it makes no sense, which is why Andy-san didn't understand it.

Hope that helps!

マイケル

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby andycarmenjapanese8100 » March 30th, 2014 7:55 pm

mmmason8967 wrote:This is a bit above my level


You've said this before. I think you're wrong. The standard intermediate lessons are longer than the lower intermediate ones but they're not much harder. The mukashi banashi episodes can be torture but with some patience and help, they're not completely overwhelming. The biggest problems are the rough old PDFs that are full of little mistakes and lacking in explanation but aside from that, I feel like I've benefitted from the extra Japanese spoken by the hosts. If I can do it, then you probably can too. Lots of vocabulary cramming though.

community.japanese wrote:Is this unique to "hataraku" or can other verbs be conjugated in this way?
Yes.


"Yes" it's unique to "hataraku" or "yes" other verbs can be conjugated this way?

community.japanese wrote:Got it. Searching the internet, I've found "yaku ni tatanai" used as "useless" too, pretty much the same thing without the "mo" - is this acceptable?
Mo is emphasis.


Got it. Thanks.

community.japanese wrote:That doesn't help. I don't know what you're trying to say.
The grammar point is the と conditional. The to conditional implies that the result is a natural or expected consequence of the condition, and is thus the strongest of the conditionals. The to conditional is appended to a phrase in the plain, present tense, which is the condition, and is followed by the consequence.
Examples:
早く家を出ないと電車に間に合わないよ!
Hayaku ie o denai to densha ni maniawanai yo!
"If you don’t leave quickly, you won’t catch the train!"


I thought it might be the "to" conditional but I dismissed that when I couldn't find anything conditional about the sentence.

In the example you gave, "to" equals "if"

"Hayaku ie o denai to densha ni maniawanai yo!"
"If you don’t leave quickly, you won’t catch the train!"

Or, another example:

"Denki o tsukeru to, akaruku narimasu"
"If you turn on the light, it will become brighter."

Where is the conditional "if" in the English translation of the problem sentence?

"美しい布を見て、サムライは、馬と交換するよう言う、布を持って東の方へ行ってしまいました。男が、夜通し馬の面倒を見てやると,馬は、朝には元気になっていました。"

"Utsukushii nuno o mite, samurai wa, uma to kōkan suru yō ni iu to, nuno o motte higashi no hō e itte shimaimashita. Otoko ga, yodōshi uma no mendō o mite yaru to, uma wa, asa ni wa genki ni natte imashita."

"The samurai saw the beautiful cloth, and proposed a trade for the horse. The samurai took the cloth and headed east, while the man looked after the horse all night. Come morning, the horse was well."

mmmason8967 wrote:
1. How does "itte" (from "iu" - "to say"?) indicate time sequence?

It's itte from iku, to go. Based on what Yuki-sensei said, the time sequence is suggested by the earlier iu to (i.e. dictionary form plus to, equating roughly to "...said, and then...".


But "to" can't follow a verb in the plain form if "to" just means "and", right? You'd put the verb in the ~te form if you wanted to continue the sentence like that. "To" after a plain verb needs to be a conditional or a quote, doesn't it?

community.japanese wrote:招かれる 招かれます is passive from which means “be invited”.
what is the plain form of the verb? "Manaku"?
Not manaku but meneku.


"Meneku" isn't in the dictionary but "maneku" is. I think that's what you meant. Originally I misread "manekaremashita" from the PDF as "manakaremashita" and that's why I couldn't figure this out. My mistake. Got it now. Thanks.

mmmason8967 wrote:
If you have more questions, could you please write the story using kanji and hiragana ?
It is extremely hard for me to read romaji and to get the sentence meanings.
kanji tell me the meaning but romaji doesn't.

僕もローマジが嫌いです。でも、アンディさんは漢字やひらがなが分かりません。


I understand kana. I know about ten kanji.

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby community.japanese » April 1st, 2014 2:56 am

マイケルさん、
I am so sorry I was confused. You are helping us.

Andycrmenjapanese8100 san,
Is this unique to "hataraku" or can other verbs be conjugated in this way?
Yes, the dictionary form is “hataraku”.

Where is the conditional "if" in the English translation of the problem sentence?

"美しい布を見て、サムライは、馬と交換するよう言うと、布を持って東の方へ行ってしまいました。男が、夜通し馬の面倒を見てやると,馬は、朝には元気になっていました。"
In the Japanese language “if” and ”when” are used similarly. In this case we have to use “when”.
For example, まっすぐ行くと駅があります。If/when you go straight, you can see a station.

But "to" can't follow a verb in the plain form if "to" just means "and", right? You'd put the verb in the ~te form if you wanted to continue the sentence like that. "To" after a plain verb needs to be a conditional or a quote, doesn't it?

That doesn’t mean just “and”. It’s like “and then”. When the sentence has time sequence, we can use “to” after verb plain form.

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby mmmason8967 » April 1st, 2014 7:28 am

I wrote this late last night and parked it up so I could fix the typos before posting and in the meantime Yuki-sensei has already answered the point. But I've decided to post it anyway...

I thought it might be the "to" conditional but I dismissed that when I couldn't find anything conditional about the sentence.

In the example you gave, "to" equals "if"

"Hayaku ie o denai to densha ni maniawanai yo!"
"If you don’t leave quickly, you won’t catch the train!"

Or, another example:

"Denki o tsukeru to, akaruku narimasu"
"If you turn on the light, it will become brighter."

Where is the conditional "if" in the English translation of the problem sentence?
.
.
.
But "to" can't follow a verb in the plain form if "to" just means "and", right? You'd put the verb in the ~te form if you wanted to continue the sentence like that. "To" after a plain verb needs to be a conditional or a quote, doesn't it?

This is me just thinking out loud...

For me, the Japanese "A to B" structure seems to be saying that B is a consequence that depends in some way on A. What about trying an example that doesn't include the word "if"? Consider this one, which is clearly conditional, despite having no "if":-

Try that again and then see what happens!

To me that looks more like the Japanese "A to B" sentence structure. Actually, I think you can drop "and then" into your example sentence to make a bilingual sentence:-

Denki o tsukeru and then akaruku narimasu.

So I'm thinking that and then looks like a good approximation of to: the sentence means the same thing with to or with and then. Which, I think, gets a bit closer to what's going on in the original problem sentence with the samurai proposing a swap and then heading East.

I've been wondering what happens when the conditional event is no longer in the future, but has become a done deed and is now in the past. What I mean is, if you start with your example:-

Turn on the light and then it will become brighter.

…and then we assume that I follow your advice and switch the light on, the sentence then becomes:-

I turned on the light and then it became brighter.

So, what's that in Japanese? I don't actually know. But I suspect that the Japanese version is likely to be a past-tense version of denki o tsukeru to akaruku narimasu, which is going to look very much like the problem sentence with the samurai. At any rate, I think this may be why there's no "if" in the problem sentence: when it's past tense, the English translation can't contain "if" (but it might contain "and then").

マイケル

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby andycarmenjapanese8100 » April 2nd, 2014 3:43 am

mmmason8967 wrote:I wrote this late last night and parked it up so I could fix the typos before posting and in the meantime Yuki-sensei has already answered the point. But I've decided to post it anyway...

I thought it might be the "to" conditional but I dismissed that when I couldn't find anything conditional about the sentence.

In the example you gave, "to" equals "if"

"Hayaku ie o denai to densha ni maniawanai yo!"
"If you don’t leave quickly, you won’t catch the train!"

Or, another example:

"Denki o tsukeru to, akaruku narimasu"
"If you turn on the light, it will become brighter."

Where is the conditional "if" in the English translation of the problem sentence?
.
.
.
But "to" can't follow a verb in the plain form if "to" just means "and", right? You'd put the verb in the ~te form if you wanted to continue the sentence like that. "To" after a plain verb needs to be a conditional or a quote, doesn't it?

This is me just thinking out loud...

For me, the Japanese "A to B" structure seems to be saying that B is a consequence that depends in some way on A. What about trying an example that doesn't include the word "if"? Consider this one, which is clearly conditional, despite having no "if":-

Try that again and then see what happens!

To me that looks more like the Japanese "A to B" sentence structure. Actually, I think you can drop "and then" into your example sentence to make a bilingual sentence:-

Denki o tsukeru and then akaruku narimasu.

So I'm thinking that and then looks like a good approximation of to: the sentence means the same thing with to or with and then. Which, I think, gets a bit closer to what's going on in the original problem sentence with the samurai proposing a swap and then heading East.

I've been wondering what happens when the conditional event is no longer in the future, but has become a done deed and is now in the past. What I mean is, if you start with your example:-

Turn on the light and then it will become brighter.

…and then we assume that I follow your advice and switch the light on, the sentence then becomes:-

I turned on the light and then it became brighter.

So, what's that in Japanese? I don't actually know. But I suspect that the Japanese version is likely to be a past-tense version of denki o tsukeru to akaruku narimasu, which is going to look very much like the problem sentence with the samurai. At any rate, I think this may be why there's no "if" in the problem sentence: when it's past tense, the English translation can't contain "if" (but it might contain "and then").

マイケル


community.japanese wrote:But "to" can't follow a verb in the plain form if "to" just means "and", right? You'd put the verb in the ~te form if you wanted to continue the sentence like that. "To" after a plain verb needs to be a conditional or a quote, doesn't it?

That doesn’t mean just “and”. It’s like “and then”. When the sentence has time sequence, we can use “to” after verb plain form.

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Great! That's that cleared up. Thanks to you both.

community.japanese wrote:"美しい布を見て、サムライは、馬と交換するよう言うと、布を持って東の方へ行ってしまいました。男が、夜通し馬の面倒を見てやると,馬は、朝には元気になっていました。"
In the Japanese language “if” and ”when” are used similarly. In this case we have to use “when”.
For example, まっすぐ行くと駅があります。If/when you go straight, you can see a station.


I can't read kanji. Your sentence would have been more helpful in romaji. Doesn't matter now, I understand the point.

community.japanese wrote:Andycrmenjapanese8100 san,
Is this unique to "hataraku" or can other verbs be conjugated in this way?
Yes, the dictionary form is “hataraku”.


I know what the dictionary form is. The question was about "hataraita keredo" becoming "hatarakedo" - assuming that other verbs can be conjugated in a similar way, how is it formed?

For example, if I wanted to say "shita keredomo", how would I say that? "Shikedo"?

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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby community.japanese » April 3rd, 2014 12:14 am

マイケルさん、

Unfortunately, denki o tsukeru and then akaruku narimasu has two meanings sometimes “
I turned on the light and then it became brighter” and sometimes if you turn on,,,,“.
It deepens on the context.’


Andy san
I know what the dictionary form is. The question was about "hataraita keredo" becoming "hatarakedo" - assuming that other verbs can be conjugated in a similar way, how is it formed?

When you want to use “kedo”, you have to use potential form except the last syllable for example, 行く → 行けど、話す→話せど, 見る→見れど and so on.


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Re: Warashibe Choja problems

Postby andycarmenjapanese8100 » April 3rd, 2014 12:47 am

community.japanese wrote:Andy san
I know what the dictionary form is. The question was about "hataraita keredo" becoming "hatarakedo" - assuming that other verbs can be conjugated in a similar way, how is it formed?

When you want to use “kedo”, you have to use potential form except the last syllable for example, 行く → 行けど、話す→話せど, 見る→見れど and so on.


Yuki 由紀
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Perfect explanation, Yuki-sensei. Thank you very much.

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