31 grammar points in 31 days

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

For the next thirty one days I intend to write a few sentences here based on the last grammar point I've learned. I'll be working backwards, starting today with LIS6L14, tomorrow with LIS6L13, and so on. If this works out, I'll do a full month of grammar points and finish on 23rd December, so I can relax on Christmas Eve.

Today's grammar point: Asking permission using causative verbs.

"Pureisuteishon o asobasete kudasai!"
Please let me play your Playstation!

"Watashi no musume ni anata no sandoicchi o tabesasete moraemasu ka?"
Will you let my daughter eat your sandwich?

"Watashi wa tsumaranaku natte kara anata no haha no ie o yakasete hoshiin desu ga..."
Because I'm bored, I want to set fire to your mother's house...

More tomorrow! Other people can feel free to join in. Corrections are appreciated.

[thegooseking]

Andy-san

The other statements look good to me, but I want to pick up on this one.

"Watashi wa tsumaranaku natte kara anata no haha no ie o yakasete hoshiin desu ga..."
Because I'm bored, I want to set fire to your mother's house...

I'm not quite sure why you're using the te form of tsumaranakunaru. I'm pretty sure the plain form or the masu form will do.

I think 'hoshii' is generally used either when you want a thing or you want someone else to do something. When you want to do something yourself, you use the -tai ending: "ie o yakasetai n desu ga..."

小狼

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I'm not quite sure why you're using the te form of tsumaranakunaru. I'm pretty sure the plain form or the masu form will do.

Because the sentence continues afterwards. Only the final verb should be in the plain or masu form, unless there are some special circumstances (like a quote), right?

I think 'hoshii' is generally used either when you want a thing or you want someone else to do something. When you want to do something yourself, you use the -tai ending: "ie o yakasetai n desu ga..."

小狼

That one comes directly from the PDF...

[thegooseking]

I'm not quite sure why you're using the te form of tsumaranakunaru. I'm pretty sure the plain form or the masu form will do.

Because the sentence continues afterwards. Only the final verb should be in the plain or masu form, unless there are some special circumstances (like a quote), right?

I see. Well, that is right, but 'kara' is another special circumstance. It's a conjunction, so you basically have two sentences in one. Unfortunately this opens a can of worms, because conjunctions in Japanese are a little bit complicated, but conjunctions like 'kara', 'ga', 'node', 'keredomo (kedo)' and 'shi' all work like this (except that 'shi' normally only takes the plain form, not the masu form). All of them have a clause that looks like a complete sentence before them.

I think 'hoshii' is generally used either when you want a thing or you want someone else to do something. When you want to do something yourself, you use the -tai ending: "ie o yakasetai n desu ga..."

That one comes directly from the PDF...

You're right. I got confused Somehow (I don't know how) I thought yaku was intransitive, that it was the house that would be 'yakuing' and that you would be the one causing this, but of course that doesn't fit with the theme of the grammar point. Yaku is actually transitive, so you will be 'yakuing' the house, and you want someone else to let you do it, so 'hoshii' here makes sense.

小狼

[mmmason8967]

"Watashi wa tsumaranaku natte kara anata no haha no ie o yakasete hoshiin desu ga..."
Because I'm bored, I want to set fire to your mother's house...

I think you should have okaasan instead of anata no haha. As I understand it, haha is used to refer to your own mother when talking to someone outside your family, so it always means my mother.

Doesn't yakasete hoshiin desu mean you're asking permission rather than expressing a desire? That is, it means "Please allow me to set fire to..." rather than "I want to set fire to...".

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I'm not quite sure why you're using the te form of tsumaranakunaru. I'm pretty sure the plain form or the masu form will do.

Because the sentence continues afterwards. Only the final verb should be in the plain or masu form, unless there are some special circumstances (like a quote), right?

I see. Well, that is right, but 'kara' is another special circumstance. It's a conjunction, so you basically have two sentences in one. Unfortunately this opens a can of worms, because conjunctions in Japanese are a little bit complicated, but conjunctions like 'kara', 'ga', 'node', 'keredomo (kedo)' and 'shi' all work like this (except that 'shi' normally only takes the plain form, not the masu form). All of them have a clause that looks like a complete sentence before them.

Checked this and you're right. Noted. Thanks.

I think you should have okaasan instead of anata no haha. As I understand it, haha is used to refer to your own mother when talking to someone outside your family, so it always means my mother.

I always get those two mixed up. Well spotted.

Doesn't yakasete hoshiin desu mean you're asking permission rather than expressing a desire? That is, it means "Please allow me to set fire to..." rather than "I want to set fire to...".

It's one of those indirect Japanese ways of saying things, isn't it? It's asking permission using the causative but not as straightforward as "please allow me". It's "I'd like it if you allowed me to..." with the expectation that the other person will take the initiative and give you what you desire. At least that's how I read it. I might be completely wrong.

Today's point...

LIS6L13 - Causative verbs.

"Watashi wa tomodachi ni beisumento de nigesaseru."
I let my friend escape from the basement.

"Warui aji noni watashi no aneki o ryouri saseru"
Despite it tasting bad, I made my older sister cook.

"Sono inu ni toire o namesasemasu"
I made/let that dog lick the toilet.

[thegooseking]

Doesn't yakasete hoshiin desu mean you're asking permission rather than expressing a desire? That is, it means "Please allow me to set fire to..." rather than "I want to set fire to...".

It's one of those indirect Japanese ways of saying things, isn't it? It's asking permission using the causative but not as straightforward as "please allow me". It's "I'd like it if you allowed me to..." with the expectation that the other person will take the initiative and give you what you desire. At least that's how I read it. I might be completely wrong.

I think that's right, but I should say that I might also be completely wrong

"Warui aji noni watashi no aneki o ryouri saseru"
Despite it tasting bad, I made my older sister cook.

"...aneki ni ryouri saseta"
Your sister is the one doing the cooking, not the one being cooked, so although in English she is the object of 'made', she is not the object of "made to cook" which is how we would translate the Japanese verb. In the causative (like the passive), 'ni' is used to mark the agent who is being made to do something.

Apart from that, in all your examples, the Japanese verbs are present tense, but you're translating them into past-tense English. I'm sure that was just an oversight, though.

小狼

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

"...aneki ni ryouri saseta"
Your sister is the one doing the cooking, not the one being cooked, so although in English she is the object of 'made', she is not the object of "made to cook" which is how we would translate the Japanese verb. In the causative (like the passive), 'ni' is used to mark the agent who is being made to do something.

I remembered this wrongly:



Somehow my mind read that as "if you MAKE somebody do something, use "o" and if you ALLOW somebody to do something use "ni"". My mistake.

This is why I should practice more. I learn by failing.

Apart from that, in all your examples, the Japanese verbs are present tense, but you're translating them into past-tense English. I'm sure that was just an oversight, though.

Whoops. When it comes to the English translation my brain switches itself off. At least I'm getting most of the Japanese right.

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

"...aneki ni ryouri saseta"
Your sister is the one doing the cooking, not the one being cooked, so although in English she is the object of 'made', she is not the object of "made to cook" which is how we would translate the Japanese verb. In the causative (like the passive), 'ni' is used to mark the agent who is being made to do something.

I remembered this wrongly:



Somehow my mind read that as "if you MAKE somebody do something, use "o" and if you ALLOW somebody to do something use "ni"". My mistake.

This is why I should practice more. I learn by failing.

After a bit more searching, I found this:



I knew I'd read that somewhere before.

I wonder if "Warui aji noni watashi no aneki o ryouri saseru" is correct after all.

[thegooseking]

Apparently that whole thing passed me by. I'm still learning!

However, that says "when the verb doesn't have an object" and I don't know whether "ryouri suru" doesn't have an object or whether 'ryouri' is the object of 'suru' (remembering that its short for "ryouri o suru"). That's an interesting question.

小狼

[mmmason8967]

Doesn't yakasete hoshiin desu mean you're asking permission rather than expressing a desire? That is, it means "Please allow me to set fire to..." rather than "I want to set fire to...".

It's one of those indirect Japanese ways of saying things, isn't it? It's asking permission using the causative but not as straightforward as "please allow me". It's "I'd like it if you allowed me to..." with the expectation that the other person will take the initiative and give you what you desire. At least that's how I read it. I might be completely wrong.

I think that's right, but I should say that I might also be completely wrong

That's a good point. But to me it looks like a straightforward statement of how bored you are, which I don't think involves the person you're talking to giving any agreement. I'm inclined to think that you'd actually use a different sentence structure, maybe something like this:-

Boku wa okaasan no ie o yakitai hodo tsumaranai.
I'm so bored I want to set fire to your mother's house.

マイケル

[mmmason8967]

"Warui aji noni watashi no aneki o ryouri saseru"
Despite it tasting bad, I made my older sister cook.

I think aneki is your own sister, so the watashi no is redundant.

I've a feeling that the clause before noni ought to be more complete--that is, it ought to stand on its own. Something like aji ga warui noni, perhaps. But I'm not feeling terribly confident about this.

Overall to me the sentence does seem to be saying "Although the flavour will be awful, I'll have them cook my sister". I could well be wrong. And in any case, if someone actually said it, I'm sure you'd take aneki o ryouri saseru to mean "I will make my sister cook". It's a bit like someone saying "if the baby won't drink its milk, try boiling it"; you'd know it was the milk that you should boil.

マイケル

[Tracel]

Andyさん、

このメッセージを日本語の字で書かせてもいいですか。ロマジで書くのは私にとって変だからです。
Kono messeji wo nihongo no ji de kakasetemo ii desu ka.　Romaji de kakunowa watashi nitotte hen dakara desu.
Will you allow me to write this message in Japanese characters?　Writing in Romaji is strange for me.

"Pureisuteishon o asobasete kudasai!"
Please let me play your Playstation!

"Watashi no musume ni anata no sandoicchi o tabesasete moraemasu ka?"
Will you let my daughter eat your sandwich?

"Watashi wa tsumaranaku natte kara anata no haha no ie o yakasete hoshiin desu ga..."
Because I'm bored, I want to set fire to your mother's house...

最初の文書は大丈夫だと思います。
Saisho no bunsho wa daijoubu da to omoimasu.
I think the first sentence is fine.

次の文書はちょっと間違えたと思います。
Tsugi no bunsho wa chotto machigaetta to omoimasu.
I think there may be a mistake in the second sentence.

"Watashi no musume ni anata no sandoicchi o tabesasete moraemasu ka?"
Will you let my daughter eat your sandwich?

I think you may have to use the auxiliary verb kudasaru here instead of morau.　I also get these mixed up, but my textbook shows an example of asking for permission using this construction and it uses the tekureru/tekudasaru/teageru format. Also, if you say musume alone that means your own Daughter, so using watashi is redundant.

娘にあなたのサンドイッチを食べさせてくださいませんか。
musume ni anata no sandoicchi o tabesasete kudasaimasen ka.
Wouldn't you let my daughter eat your sandwich please?


The last sentence:

"Watashi wa tsumaranaku natte kara anata no haha no ie o yakasete hoshiin desu ga..."
Because I'm bored, I want to set fire to your mother's house...

I hope I am wrong, but I think this means: "Because I have become boring, I want you to burn down your old lady's house..." [/quote]:P

Maybe something like this.....
いまごろ、ひじょうにたいくつだから、わたしはあなたのおかあさんのいえをやけおちさせたいんですが。。。
Imagora, hijouni taikutsu da kara, watashi wa anata no okaasan no ie o yake-ochisasetai n desu ga...
Nowadays, I am really bored (it's really boring), so I want to burn your mother's house down...

Hopefully I haven't led you astray with these options. By the way, I have noticed that your posts are in romaji only and I was wondering if you understand hiragana?

Good thread by the way.

お元気で、
トラ

[Tracel]

マイケルさん、小狼さん、あんでぃさん、

I would like to address the question of -tehoshii in this sense.

Doesn't yakasete hoshiin desu mean you're asking permission rather than expressing a desire? That is, it means "Please allow me to set fire to..." rather than "I want to set fire to...".

I do not think that it means permission here, actually.
hoshii by itself usually means that 'I want something'.

クッキーがほしいです。
Kukkii ga hoshii desu.
I want a cookie.

tehoshii means that you want someone else to do something.

この本を買ってほしいです。
kono hon o katte hoshii desu.
I want (you) to buy that book.

クッキーをやかせてほしいんです。????
yakasete hoshiin desu
I want you to bake/burn/grill some cookies. (I don't know if you need/can use the causative here; so maybe the sentence below is better.)
クッキーを焼いてほしいです。

If you want to ask permission, I believe that you use the construction, te mo ii desu ka.

この本を買ってもいいですか。
kono hon wo katte mo ii desu ka.
Is it ok to buy this book?

トラ

[Tracel]

Hi again,

Some observations with your next set of sentences:
1. "Watashi wa tomodachi ni beisumento de nigesaseru."
I let my friend escape from the basement.

私は友達にベースメントから逃がしてやった。
Watashi wa tomodachi ni beisumento kara nigashite yatta.
---> changed de (in, at) to kara (from), and nigesaseru to nigashite yatta (means to 'let escape').

2. "Warui aji noni watashi no aneki o ryouri saseru"
Despite it tasting bad, I made my older sister cook.

The English sentence is somewhat vague as to when this occurred. Did you know that it was going to taste bad, and made her cook anyway? Then maybe saying something like "Even though I knew it was going to taste bad, I made my older sister cook. "

味がまずかったはずなのに、姉に料理をさせたんだ。
Aji ga mazukatta hazu na noni, ane ni ryouri o saseta n da.
Even though I expected it to taste bad, I made my sister cook.

ーー＞First clause is a bit clearer, and the tenses match. Uses the noun hazu which means 'it is expected that". A noun preceding noni must have na after it.
ーー＞You cannot have the particle o twice in one clause, so if you use ryouri o suru, then you cannot mark ane with o as well.

I do not know if taking the o out of the phrase ryouri o suru --> ryouri suru makes it possible to use o with ane.

3. "Sono inu ni toire o namesasemasu"
I made/let that dog lick the toilet.

その犬にトイレをなめさせました。
Sono inu ni toire o namesasemashita.
ーー＞I just changed the tense.

おげんきで、
トラ