New here and needing a starting point

[Myst32]

Hello nice to meet you all.

see the reason why that's in english is because I'm new here, but you probably guessed that so let's cut to the chase.

I'll keep this short since this kind of post is probably a dime a dozen, first of all for an absolute and complete newbie what plan buy I subscribe to, I want really learn so I'm thinking start at premium and then go to premium plus when I cut my teeth and want to be more advanced.

To start of with I'll grab all the mp3's I can get my hands on and put them on my phone to listen to while I decide what subscription to buy.

Thanks in advance,
Myst

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Everybody starts differently and everybody probably thinks their own way is the best. So, here's how I got started and why I think it's the best way...

Peter and Naomi, two of the hosts from this site, made a stand-alone audiobook series called Gengo Japanese ("Japanese language"). It consists of thirty audio lessons between ten and twenty minutes in length. It was made as an introduction to the language, presuming that the learner has zero experience of Japanese. That is in contrast to the Newbie/Absolute Beginner podcasts on this site, which I think are a little bit above the "zero knowledge" level. If I was a new learner and tried one of the easy podcasts from JPod101, I'd probably think they were too hard.

Another great thing about Gengo Japanese is that you can legally get it for free. Here it is on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Japanese-Beginn ... B004BNFKL6 - as part of a promotional deal, if you sign up to Audible.co.uk (also free) then you can download the entire set for nothing.

By the end of that set you'll still be at the beginner level but it's a very easy segue into JapanesePod101. On JPod101 you'll hear the same hosts and the same style of lesson. It''ll be a continuation of what you're already used to.

As far as what to avoid... Rosetta Stone is universally despised. I've completed all of the Japanese levels available on there and I hated every one. It's decent for vocabulary building but the amount of grief it puts learners through is unbelievable, and the price is borderline criminal. If I hadn't got it for free I'd never have used it.

[mewes6190]

Hello Myst!

To be honest - while this site really IS a great way, and actually I'm spending a lot of time here while building up, I wouldn't recommend to ONLY use this site. Don't know why, but to me, it helps to get different sources, because often they describe the same grammatical rule or pattern in a different way, with a different emphasis, so that in the end you get a much miore detailed picture. (Like with the te-Form).
So, you might consider a textbook additionally.
Also, learning Kanji is something, you might try some different approaches to. For me, the Heisig-method worked quite well and gave me a fabulous fundament for learning them in more detail now that I get into building up vocabulary.

Anyway, there's ONE tip, I give each and every japanese beginner from the depth of my heart: Whichever way, whatever you learn, always START with the Kana! The absolutely first thing you should ever learn before anything else, should be the two Kana, Hiragana and Katakana, because whatever you learn later on when starting off into the adventurous lands that Japanese is, it's the one thing everything else is based on, it's your currency, your map, and your travelbag!

Apart from that: Simply try to keep it fun. It's my second most important tipp for beginners. Pick the lessons which you consider fun. If it's too hard, or you don't get the connections, or can't follow an grammatical explanation: Step back to something easier and lighter. Whenever it feels like dry, hard work, or frustrating, you're wrong, should step back a bit, and stay in an area where it's fun. That way, you might progress more slowly, but in my opinion, a progress in fun is the only possible progress. Especially in Japanese, which DOES have it's frustrating moments!!

So - pick the lessons you consider fun, and skip the ones that don't. You might return to them later on and be surprised how, suddenly, they too became fun!

Best
Kurokuma

[Myst32]

Wow like ribbis you just gave me more questions.

But those are some really interesting points.

Andy, thanks for the book idea, I was thinking 'eh going somewhere else and getting a book on top and stuff I don't really want to do that if I'm still a beginner after 30 lessons' but then I thought more about it and if it gives me a fundation to start building on it's a good idea.
I was sold on rosetta stone to begin with I guess I was drawn in by the proffesional look of it, but looking back now the first mp3's I listened to here have stuck in my mind for a very long time, while rosetta is just a few spots in my memory.

Mewes, thank you for the tip on the kana I'll definitely look into it, the problem there is that that it will probably be in textbook form I'll have to go about that and I'm a very slow reader so I'll see what I can do about that. Maybe do kana with speaking lessons?

Thanks for now, you've given me some really great tips but I'm always willing to hear from more people of course.

[mewes6190]

Actually, the best way to learn the Kana is by flashcards. (Or again with the Heisig Book)

It's simply the matter of connecting the japanese syllables with the according japanese sign. Like "Sa" = さ, and "Yo" = よ, and "Na" = な, and "Ra" = ら, so that you can read さよなら as sa-yo-na-ra. Sayonara. The Kana are the two japanese alphabets.

Being able to read them, is THE key to learning the language.

I actually recommend Heisig on these, that way it might be done in a weekend, it's a really good mnemonic way to learn them:
http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kana- ... ana+heisig

Otherwise: Write them on Flashcards, with the sound on the other side and just learn them. Later on, when reading japanese, you'll repeat them more than enough.
Here are the TWO alphabets (The two Kana) on a nice little drilling site:
http://www.realkana.com/

Best
Kurokuma

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Andy, thanks for the book idea, I was thinking 'eh going somewhere else and getting a book on top and stuff I don't really want to do that if I'm still a beginner after 30 lessons' but then I thought more about it and if it gives me a fundation to start building on it's a good idea.
I was sold on rosetta stone to begin with I guess I was drawn in by the proffesional look of it, but looking back now the first mp3's I listened to here have stuck in my mind for a very long time, while rosetta is just a few spots in my memory.

You're still going to be a beginner after thirty lessons no matter which program you decide to go with.

If you do the maths and estimate that each lesson lasts fifteen minutes, multiplied by thirty lessons, that gives a total running time of under eight hours. It's conceivable that you could listen to all of those lessons in one day but it'll realistically take you months to LEARN them.

Kudos for avoiding many of the newbie traps, though. Scam artists prey on more naive learners. If anybody tells you that you can be fluent in under a year, they're lying. If anybody tells you that you can learn a language by watching cartoons, they're lying. If Rosetta Stone tells you that it can teach you Japanese the same way you learned English, it's lying. Sadly, the only method that works is the old fashioned one.

[mewes6190]

Good Point, Andy!

I can only back that up. It takes months to get beyond "This is a fish" or "This is a car from italy" sentences. My guess is, that if you really put time into it, after 6 Months of daily training, you can start to slowly read easy japanese texts. Everyone or everything who promises you something else, won't be able to deliver. At least not to my experience.

Hence: It should be given time and that's why I said, it should stay fun, 'cause boy, is it rewarding and fun when you start to understand that gibberish!!

[Myst32]

You're still going to be a beginner after thirty lessons no matter which program you decide to go with.

If you do the maths and estimate that each lesson lasts fifteen minutes, multiplied by thirty lessons, that gives a total running time of under eight hours. It's conceivable that you could listen to all of those lessons in one day but it'll realistically take you months to LEARN them.

Kudos for avoiding many of the newbie traps, though. Scam artists prey on more naive learners. If anybody tells you that you can be fluent in under a year, they're lying. If anybody tells you that you can learn a language by watching cartoons, they're lying. If Rosetta Stone tells you that it can teach you Japanese the same way you learned English, it's lying. Sadly, the only method that works is the old fashioned one.

I completely agree, on doing the math especially and I did after repling the first time, unlucky for me I apparently have run out the free trial on audible, probably just by having an amazon account, not that I don't have the money, free is just well it's free.

They are hinting on the main dashboard page that some sales might be coming up at the end of the month so I'll see about getting the book(s) then.

As for the old fashioned way, if that means meeting new cool people from different cultures I'm in.

And I see Mewes was here again so hello to you as well.

I want to get back to work but I will leave you with this:
http://www.fluentin3months.com/ don't let the name fool you, it's all about learning in the right way. I really like his perfectionist paralysis post because I'm like that alot.

[mewes6190]

I watched the tidbit about Bennys fluent Japanese after 3 months - that's definately doable with daily work. Personally I would describe his level in that short video as lower beginner to beginner. The vocabulary isn't very specific and the sentence patterns are still of the easier kind.
Which isn't to make his efforts look small, it's simply a personal assessment of his skill after three months. At least I could understand him perfectly well and even heard some mistakes in his polite/informal forms, and I'm a beginner.

I didn't hear more complex vocabulary or sentence patterns, or even more complex connections or combined particles, no wake, tokoro or you, no to kai to, towa, or any of the other stuff that's really gnawing at me right now.

So yes, you might and should reach a level like that after 3 months of daily exercises, probably even with this site in premium and by really studying all the material.

Best
Kurokuma

[Myst32]

ok I snagged up the premium subscription for now, is it just me or is the pricing a bit confusing?

Man there's a long journey ahead of me, but you guys have given my some good pointers to start of with so thanks a lot for that. I'm really excited to get started.

Edit: andy is the book you linked me to?
http://store.innovativelanguage.com/Aud ... p_309.html

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Edit: andy is the book you linked me to?
http://store.innovativelanguage.com/Aud ... p_309.html

Looks like it. But that's an exe file rather than a collection of mp3s so you won't be able to export it to a portable media player.

[Myst32]

Edit: andy is the book you linked me to?
http://store.innovativelanguage.com/Aud ... p_309.html

Looks like it. But that's an exe file rather than a collection of mp3s so you won't be able to export it to a portable media player.

ok but maybe there are mp3's once you've installed it?

[community.japanese]

Myst-san, Andy-san, Kurokuma-san,
thank you very much for kind helps, Andy-san and Kurokuma-san!
Thank you, all of you, for this friendly thread!

Myst-san, thank you very much for the subscription!
If you've just started using our site, it'd probably be the best choice
You have pretty much full access on our site and lessons, and it usually takes long time to
get used to this vast volume of contents and features.
Also, please don't forget that you have lovely kind colleagues here, and support from us, JapanesePod101.com team!
Using the forum and comment boards to practice and/or ask questions would also help you, and of course, you're
always welcome to do that.

Good luck on your study!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[Myst32]

Myst-san, Andy-san, Kurokuma-san,
thank you very much for kind helps, Andy-san and Kurokuma-san!
Thank you, all of you, for this friendly thread!

Myst-san, thank you very much for the subscription!
If you've just started using our site, it'd probably be the best choice
You have pretty much full access on our site and lessons, and it usually takes long time to
get used to this vast volume of contents and features.
Also, please don't forget that you have lovely kind colleagues here, and support from us, JapanesePod101.com team!
Using the forum and comment boards to practice and/or ask questions would also help you, and of course, you're
always welcome to do that.

Good luck on your study!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

Arigato gozaimasu for the kind words, I actually already dove into the absolute beginner lessons and I'm more or less through season 1, I have to repeat some of it of course, but I'm well on my way, and you've made it very easy to just start learning.

I would show of and write all 46 hiragana (learned here by the way) but it's going to take to long finding all the characters on a western keyboard.

[mewes6190]

I would show of and write all 46 hiragana (learned here by the way) but it's going to take to long finding all the characters on a western keyboard.

Most OS's are capable of installing an IME-writing system, in which you simply write out the syllables. So, you type t-s-u and get つ - tsu. That way you won't have to find any characters on your keyboard.

Best
くろくま
kurokuma