[something]about a [something] named...

[danfernold7261]

Konnichiha

I stumbled upon this while one of my previous posts (something about something) popped up in my mind again.

the pattern for how you say "This is a [something] about [something] named [name].

as I always do in these situations, I first looked it up with G.T. (google translate) and got an answer. It was [name] to iu namae no [something] desu

This got me a little confused. For me "to iu namae no" is "to = and, iu = to say, namae = name, and no = possesive/normalization particle"

Is this the right pattern for this, or is it something else?

Watashi wa shiritai desu. Oshiete kudasai

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

[ericf]

Enough already. Did you really not get the message? Start with the basics. This is not the basics. I'm sorry, but no reply to this is going to be particularly meaningful unless/until you've thoroughly covered each and every grammar point used by this sentence.

[danfernold7261]

Sorry to do this but, then tell me what "the basics" is

and as I said in my "is this right" post I am getting a japanese grammar book

What should I do until it arrives!? Nothing?!

watashi wa ima fuman o kanjite imasu

Dan Fernold

[mmmason8967]

The trouble is that you ask intelligent, interesting questions but for some reason you seem to be completely incapable of understanding the answers you receive or, sometimes, even realising you've had the answer.

Sometimes it seems that you simply don't pay very much attention when you read what somebody has written. For example, in the Is this right? thread you wrote:-

How is that possible?? How can something be correct and not correct?

What Yamamori-sensei actually wrote was "Your description … seems to be correct, but also not very correct." This is (a) clear and easy to understand and (b) does not remotely mean "correct and not correct". If you paid any attention at all, how could you think that it did?

I responded to your question about ~te kureru and ~te ageru the other day. You replied saying that you "get it with kureru and ageru" but then proceeded to ask more questions about ~te kureru and ~te ageru that make it very clear that you don’t "get it with kureru and ageru" at all. If you did "get it with kureru and ageru", you'd be able to answer the questions yourself.

Yamamori-sensei spent almost six hours on Sunday night responding to your questions. I know that because the middle of the night in Tokyo is the middle of the day here in the UK. Yamamori-sensei clearly took a great deal of time responding carefully and clearly but in the end it was just TLDR, wasn't it? You seem to have no appreciation of the horrible position you're putting her in, where she feels she has to answer questions knowing that you won't understand the answers.

Enough of the ranting. Let's have a look at your questions:-

to = and. No it doesn't. There are many uses of to, one of which can be translated into English as "and". However, your example is not that one.

iu = to say. Yes, that's right.

namae = name. Yes, but the reverse isn't always the case.

no = possesive/normalization particle. I honestly have no idea what you mean by "normalization particle".

マイケル

[Zelg]

Oh snap.

[Tracel]

Oh snap.

I agree, 'oh snap'.

But I also agree with Michael and Eric. This forum is to help clarify stuff that you have come across in a lesson, not to teach you everything from scratch.

Dan-san, we all want to know how to say something that is beyond our level sometimes, but to continually do this makes no sense. This may sound harsh but it is also taking advantage of the good nature of our teacher to keep harassing her with questions that are out of any context so therefore a waste everyone's time.

Now, you say that you got a grammar book, and this worries me because a grammar book and a Japanese learning text book are two different things. Most grammar books don't actually teach you lessons in a specified order from beginner to advanced. They just list grammar points and then you will be back to asking questions about stuff that is too advanced. You need lessons starting at the beginning level, and you do not get that in a forum. Are you deliberately misunderstanding everyone? You do realize that we are all feeling very uncomfortable about the discussions continuing on like this.

And your answer, by the way, is yes. You should wait until you get your lessons and actually start learning them before you ask anymore questions like the one's in all of your posts. I am sure everyone will be happy to help you once you start learning Japanese from the beginning and have a lesson to refer to.

[Zelg]

I agree as well. Would just like to point out that making multiple threads regarding the same question clutters up the forum. I cant help but look at the first page of this section of the forums and realize that HALF of the threads belong to Dan. I think it'd be a good idea to condense your ideas a bit. Theres no harm in continuing one thread as each time there is a new post in it, the front page will highlight the thread indicating that a new post has been posted and thus will be seen by the lovely people that are ever so helpful on this site. Just some food for thought.

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Dan, you actually make my Japanese worse. Sometimes I think I understand a concept or grammar rule then I read one of your threads and it confuses me. I'm not even sure I know English anymore after this thread.

You clearly know where Google is and if you searched for sample sentences highlighting the differences between "~te ageru" and "~te kureru" (as you requested here) then you'd probably see that this has been answered on many different websites, often in great detail and sometimes with pictures. Here is a site with exactly that. Making a post on this forum for the sole purpose of asking us for examples is a waste of your own time as much as anybody else's. The answers are already easy to find.

Your questions often consist of how to say "[something] about [something]" and this is a bad idea, as people have pointed out. If you ask questions with vague parameters then the answer will change in different situations. It will lead you to being gramatically incorrect. It's important to explain your confusion clearly and be specific about what you want from an answer.

I don't want to speak for anybody else but I think that one of the reasons that members are unhappy is that we all value Natsuko-san very highly. It would be a shame if she became demoralised because of your posts. Personally, I've learned a lot from her and my Japanese would suffer greatly if she left the forum. It's rare to find a native Japanese speaker who is also fluent in English and capable of giving detailed explanations to complicated questions. We're all very lucky to have her, and perhaps a bit protective.

[community.japanese]

Dan-san, エリックsan, マイケルsan, Zelg-san, トラセルsan, Andy-san,

first, thank you very much all the comments, everyone!!
I was simply surprised (and glad, of course) to get great supports from all of you.
(マイケルsan, you astonished me Finding out that I spent some hours on J-Pod.... )

Dan-san, they're right. Everyone who replied to you, apart from J-Pod member like myself,
tried to help you as they all understand your wish to understand and study Japanese.
Michael-san replied to some of your questions with superb explanations, and yet
(I also realised) you "understood" his explanation as you wanted it to be.
As far as I'm concerned, all explanations from keen learners like him are even better than mine
and clear (because I tend to write longer with a lot of jargons).
I'm sure you can't find grammar explanation as good as their replies in any books at all.
So, please pay attention to all those replies sent with good wills to you.

Regarding your question to "what is basics", please check our curriculums of each season of any level.
This feature is free so you have access to any curriculums.
Our curriculums show what grammar points each lesson covers. When I (and Eric-san) said "basics",
such "basics" are grammar points in lower levels. So, if you check grammar points from the Absolute Beginner,
you'll have a chart, or "table of contents", and you'll see which grammar you should learn first.

Lastly, everyone who replied to you, Dan-san, on this thread have been studying Japanese with us
for a long time and they are all very keen learners. I'm sure listening to "experienced learners"
are always beneficial for yourself


Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Everyone.

Firstly, what I mean with normalization particle is that I thought it was it in a sentece from one of my other posts. "watashi niwa, nattsu wo taberu no wa kiken desu." there "no" makes the whole part "nattsu wo taberu" into a nounsentence, that´s to say it makes it a "noun." But if I am wrong, then just say so, and I am not always able to fully understand some answers, and sometimes, yes I miss something, but I want to be certain.

Secondly, Yes, I know where google is, and I have used it, but, as I´ve said in another post, The examples there are in Kanji mixed with Hiragana, which makes it harder to understand, and therefore, makes me search for another site, with roumaji, or A wa B...., which is hard to find,

Thirdly, I would be very sad to, if Natsuko-sensei left, or for some other reason won´t be able to answer questions, and the only reason I use "Natsuko-sensei" in many of my posts, is solely because of the fact, that when I do, she has answered that post, in the past.

Fourthly, I know I´ve said that see myself as a beginner, but I only post questions on which I myself think that I can grasp the answer. I´m not asking someone to teach me something from scratch here, and many times it just takes a few sample sentences for me to grasp a concept. How can I know if something´s above my skill level, if no one tells me, in a way I can understand?

And lastly. I don´t see how my posts can make someone understand english or japanese less. I could post questions in my native language swedish, but that would be harder for you I assume, right? Futhermore, I am fully aware about the time-difference, and I´m not asking someone to answer my posts in the middle of the night. The case is that I must ask questions when they pop up, so they doesn´t become scrambled.

Hope this makes you understand what I am aiming for. I don´t want anyone to quit, in any way

Dan Fernold

P.S. andycarmenjapanese8100, the site with pictures and sentences on -te ageru -te kureru and -te morau was good. Thanks

anata wa watashi ni atarashii kuruma o katte kureru no ka = Will you buy me a car? (katte kureru - To have someone buy something(for me)

watashi wa haha ni atarashii kuruma o katte ageru - I´ll buy (my) mom a new car (or in other words: I´ll my mom the favour of buying her a new car.) katte ageru - I will buy something (for someone)

Watashi wa musuko ni atarashii kuruma o katte moratta = (My son bought me a new car (or in other words: My son did me the favour of buying me a new car.)

-te kureru and -te morau is rather difficult to seperate. Morau = to have someone do something for you, kureru = someone does something for you?

[Zelg]

Dan

As a beginner myself, I'd just like to say a couple things. I notice that you post many things way above my level. Which is great that you're able to grasp such things. The problem is that I've seen you post some very, very basic questions about grammar points that come up in absolute beginner 1. This leads me, and everyone else, to believe that it would be a great idea to start from the beginning and go lesson by lesson and making absolutely sure that you're able to grasp the grammar while also making your own sentences without jumping ahead and trying to say anything more complex. I bet that if you do this, you'll not only catch a few points that you're not as familiar with as you had thought, but it'll force you to take things just a bit slower. What I get from all of your posts seems to be that you're trying to jump way too far ahead of what is comfortable for you.

Being able to grasp what you read or hear in a lesson wont necessarily mean that you grasp the concept. If you find that you have trouble fully grasping something in one lesson, thats when you should come to the forum for clarification. There is also no harm in going back to review previously studied lessons. It can only help. I urge you to start from the beginning lessons and not only see if you can read them perfectly without question but also make your own SIMPLE practice sentences to make sure you get it. As it is now, it just appears that you are rushing. Your questions on the forum are all over the map and I think a little bit of self discipline and focus will take you a long way. I'd even go as far as to suggest that you avoid learning via google translate.

Again, just some friendly advice. No one want you to stop learning or stop coming to jpod101. You just need to focus a bit and refresh on some lower level stuff before jumping too far ahead.

Zelg

[danfernold7261]

Zelgさん。

Firstly: Thank you for your input.
Secondly; Some of posts is,.yes,.on some very basic stuff maybe, but they are on stuff that , you guessed it, google translate confused me on, and since I've learned one thing here, that google translate says is wrong, then I have to ask (as I am just a free member, without the oppurtunity to review.)
And lastly: I'm not using Google to learn, I'm just it to check my own translations, and well, whe something seems strange, I must know if it's right or not, and that's the kind of person I am, unfortunately.

よろしく

Dan Fernold

[mmmason8967]

what I mean with normalization particle is … "no" makes the whole part "nattsu wo taberu" into a noun sentence

Oh, I see! You mean nominalisation; coincidentally, "normalisation" means something in the work that I do, so I was trying (unsuccessfully) to understand how it could apply to no.

How can I know if something´s above my skill level, if no one tells me, in a way I can understand?

One thing these forums have suffered no shortage of lately are messages saying "Dan, this is above your skill level".

Futhermore, I am fully aware about the time-difference, and I´m not asking someone to answer my posts in the middle of the night.

The time difference isn't the point. The point is that Yamamori-sensei put in a lot of time and effort to compose the replies she wrote to you. She carefully explained that the kind of answers you appear to want are incompatible with her professional standards: you can't expect her to sign her name at the bottom of something that she knows is lacking, incomplete or misleading.

Hope this makes you understand what I am aiming for. I don´t want anyone to quit, in any way

Nobody wants anybody to quit. I said already that your questions are intelligent and interesting. The problem is that you seem to insist on one-line answers when the question you've asked really can't be dealt with like that. There's no point asking how to add two 3-digit numbers together if you don't know how to add two single-digit numbers together. And if you do ask, and someone tells you that it's basically the same as adding two single-digit numbers, it's futile to say that you desperately need to know or that you're really only interested in 3-digit numbers at the moment.

So ... let's try adding some 3-digit numbers together:-

-te kureru and -te morau is rather difficult to seperate. Morau = to have someone do something for you, kureru = someone does something for you?

No, they're not difficult to separate: kureru means "give" and morau means "receive". True, "He gave me a book" and "I received a book from him" describe the same situation but that doesn't mean that "give" and "receive" have similar meanings. You can use "I won" and "you lost" to describe the same situation, but nobody thinks "win" and "lose" have similar meanings.

When we want to talk about doing something for someone or doing favours, it gets a bit complicated. The problem is that we only really have one way of talking about it in English: "You did me a favour", "she cooked the dinner for you", "I walked the dog for him", and so on. If you want to say the same thing in Japanese, you need to work out whether to use ~te ageru, ~ te kureru or ~te morau. So how do you decide?

The answer is that you choose ageru, kureru or morau the same way you would choose them if you were talking about an object rather than a deed or a favour. Which, of course, means you have to be able to make that choice. If you don't know how to talk about giving and receiving, then you're not going to be able to talk about doing favours or having favours done. Conversely, if you do know how to use ageru, kureru and morau, you're not going to have much difficulty talking about those things.

マイケル

[danfernold7261]

Well, I Said this in ny post on precisely this topic, -te ageru: I am doing this for [person], -te kureru: [person] is doing this for me, and -te morau, [person] is doing this for me (as a favour) (this is not what I frist wrote, bit this is what I mean.) Am I right or should slip -te morau (for now?)

よろしく

Dan Fernold