"You no" and particle problems...

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

LI S5 L14:

Japanese:

(Shūmatsu)

SAORI: Etto, kono chiketto de, dezāto o nijusshurui made taberu koto ga dekiru no ne.

YŪKI: Hitori de nijusshurui mo taberu no wa muri ja nai? Jusshurui yō no chiketto o katta hō ga yokunai?

English:

(Weekend)

SAORI: Sooo…with this ticket we can eat up to twenty kinds of desserts.

YUKI: Isn't it impossible for one person to eat twenty kinds of desserts? Wouldn't it be better to buy the ticket for ten types of desserts?

I'm familiar with the "mo" particle meaning "too." Eric-san also explained it in this way:

Yes, "mo" means "too" but it's not implying that the same thing happens in the previous clause; though I can see how that idea comes about. "mo" is being used as a non-exhaustive list:

gōruden'wīku ga owatte kara, zenzen A mo, B mo, C mo denai n da yo ne.

...where A is "yaruki" and B, C etc aren't mentioned. Either "yaruki" is the most important or only thing in the list, or it's being used in the sense that "not even yaruki ga denai".

However, neither of these definitions seems to work for "nijusshurui mo" in Yuki's speech.

Next...

I'm familiar with "you" as in:

"Sensei wa seito ni shukudai o suru you ni itta."
The teacher told the students to do their homework.

And...

"Takusan machigaenai you ni, yoku kangaete kudasai"
So that you don't make lots of mistakes, please think well.

But I don't understand "you no" in "jusshurui you no chiketto."

[ericf]

Hi Andy,

mo

I'd say mo is working much the same way. Consider these two separate sentences:

nijuu shurui wo taberu no wa muri.
juu shurui wo taberu no wa muri.

Clearly both are related, so you can change them to:

nijuu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.
juu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.

Or combine them into one sentence:

nijuu shurui mo, juu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.

It's still a non-exhaustive list because also 12 kinds, also 25 kinds and also 15 kinds (etc) of dessert are too much to eat.


you

you? Is that 用 perhaps? A ticket to use for ten kinds. It's a different word to the you in machigai nai you ni.

Does that make sense?

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Hi Andy,

mo

I'd say mo is working much the same way. Consider these two separate sentences:

nijuu shurui wo taberu no wa muri.
juu shurui wo taberu no wa muri.

Clearly both are related, so you can change them to:

nijuu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.
juu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.

Or combine them into one sentence:

nijuu shurui mo, juu shurui mo taberu no wa muri.

It's still a non-exhaustive list because also 12 kinds, also 25 kinds and also 15 kinds (etc) of dessert are too much to eat.

But "juu shurui wo taberu no wa muri" doesn't appear in the dialogue. The quote that follows is, "jusshurui yō no chiketto o katta hō ga yokunai?" He's not saying that twenty kinds of dessert and ten kinds of dessert are too much to eat. He's saying twenty kinds of dessert are too much to eat but ten kinds of dessert are not too much to eat. So it can't be a non-exhaustive list of things that are too much to eat.

you

you? Is that 用 perhaps? A ticket to use for ten kinds. It's a different word to the you in machigai nai you ni.

Does that make sense?

Kanji:

勇気: 一人で20種類も食べるのは無理じゃない？１０種類用のチケットを買ったほうが良くない？

So "you" in this context means "use?"

[ericf]

But "juu shurui wo taberu no wa muri" doesn't appear in the dialogue. The quote that follows is, "jusshurui yō no chiketto o katta hō ga yokunai?" He's not saying that twenty kinds of dessert and ten kinds of dessert are too much to eat. He's saying twenty kinds of dessert are too much to eat but ten kinds of dessert are not too much to eat. So it can't be a non-exhaustive list of things that are too much to eat.

The point is that "20 kinds" is a non-exhaustive list, it's not only "20 kinds" that are too much to eat.

Kanji:

勇気: 一人で20種類も食べるのは無理じゃない？１０種類用のチケットを買ったほうが良くない？

So "you" in this context means "use?"

Crikey, seeing the kanji makes it sooooo much easier to read/understand. Thanks. Yes, 用 means "use", but it's not about context, "用" and "よう" are different words. And as such have different meanings. Like "there" and "their" or any number of other examples in English. "there" and "their" sound the same, and if they were written in romaji they'd look the same and things would get pretty confusing fast.

[community.japanese]

Andy-san, Eric-san,
kon'nichiwa.

That's right, Eric-san. This "mo" describes "excessive amount" or "more than expected".
When you include surprise such as "that much?" and "too much", we don't use normal particle like "o",
but we replace it with "mo" and say "....mo [verb] nowa muri".
This "mo" can be used also in;
kono tokei wa 10 man en MO suru. = This watch costs 100 thousand yen (which is too much).
paatii ni 500 nin mo kita. = Five hundred guests came to the party (which is a lot of people and more than expected).

用 is, yes, "use". This usage of 用 means "the ticket is for ...." or "(ticket) to use for".
When there's a specific ticket "for" something or some purpose, we use this 用 to mean "use of/for".
It's not only for tickets, actually. Even when we say "lavatory for women is over there", we can use it and say
女性用のお手洗いは、あちらです。(josei you no o-tearai wa achira desu). If something is for kids,
it'd be 子供用 and if a seat is for disable people, it'd be 障害者用

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com