-naide vs. -nakute

[danfernold7261]

今ごごろくじじゅうはっぷん。こばんは Dan です

I stumbled upon this while saying japanese sentences to myself: neg. te-form, and I found that there were two: -naide and -nakute.

Now, I've searched the internet and found that -naide is used with ください and in some -teform patterns vith two verbs involved, and -nakute is used when combing two sentences into one through a negative verb.

A thought that popped up right now, is that -nakute is more "don't "verb" and..."
Another is that maybe is has a connection to i- and na- adjectives, and their continuative forms.

Am I on the right track at all?

おしえてください

よろしく

Dan Fernold

[community.japanese]

Dan-san,
I think you're partially right. If you ask someone "not to do something", it's usually ～ないでください。
So, you're right here.

Strictly speaking, "naku te" is "te-form" of either i-adjective or verbs' negative but progressive form.
However, without any example sentences, I can't tell until where you actually understood and what exactly
is causing this confusion.
In any expressions to link a negative form of verbs to other expressions like ください,
it's mostly ～ないで and なくて is to link i-adjectives in negative form.
If なくて is used as a part of verbs' form, it should be progressive such as いそいでいなくて and していなくて
(PROBABLY used to say two or more verbs in negative forms).

In the future, will you provide always some example sentences so that we can talk specifically about those
cases without giving you a wrong idea? (Please also provide English translation to make sure we're talking
about the same meanings)

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Natsukoせんせい。

たしかに。Here is an explanation on what I think is "right"

ないで is used for asking or telling someone not to do something (i.e. これをわすれないでください。- Please don't forget this, or これをわすれないでよ - Don't forget this.) But it can be used in the structure "neg. verb" de "verb" (i.e. 私の口をあけないで、はなした。(I spoke without opening my mouth) (when I write this it is nearly ごぜん にじ here, so please feel free to correct any misstakes)

To make it short, I think なくて is more the case when you tell someone something that had happened, and by that I mean like "watashi no kuchi wo akenakute, hanashita," ("without opening my mouth, I spoke") in contrast to the previous example.

Simply put, in story-mode (i.e. I spoke without opening mouth, or without opening my mouth, I spoke) ないで puts emphasis on without opening.... and なくて puts emphasis on I spoke.

なくて leaves you wanting more, whilst ないで marks the end of a sentence (from the english perspective.)

There. I hope this clarifies everything, if not, おしえてください

Lastly,.again please correct any faults. Next time, I'll try doing this sooner.

Until next time よろしく

Dan Fernold

[community.japanese]

Dan-san,
your understanding about those cases seems to be correct.
However, the most important points to remeber are not about those meanings.
It's more grammar-based pattern(s) and usages, as I explained before.

Things don't change according to meanings here; [verb]-de.... is used as "te-form" of verbs and
it's the form to connect a verb to the next expression.
When verbs have "nakute", it's either case as I stated before. It's not the meanings; it's usage.
なくて is basically NOT for verbs unless verbs are used in "progressive form".

I think you need to learn those forms properly with lessons and grammar explanation rather than
my abstract explanation here. Sorry, but languages are not that simple and there're "proper ways"
to study. Simple explanations and abstract description might lead you "incorrect understanding"
and I can't deny this thread it leading to it. You first need to learn "te-form" of verbs and its usages
(it has a lot of usages and meanings) seperately from "nakute" which is "te-form" of "nai".

Hope you understand.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Yes I think I understand, Let me try again.

If I understand correctly, from what I´ve read from all this is:

naide: used with verbs (generally)
nakute: neg. adjectives and verbs in progressive -te + kunai-form verb (plain) - form (now treated as an i-adj. (in connection to -nai)


One last thing I saw om thejapanesepage.com is something about when to use which. The explanation was

A-naide B is used for sentences like "Do B without doing A" and nakute for "not do A, and do B"

Is that thing for right sentence-structures?

Example:.Go to school without watching TV! (てをみていないで、がっこうにいけ)
You can't eat sushi,.but you can eat udon. (あなたはすしをたべなくて、しかしうどんをたべれ。)

Right? I really hope so.

Yoroshiku

Dan Fermold

[community.japanese]

Dan-san,
I think your understanding now should be fine.
However, this information source doesn't seem to be good for you because it's focused more on
English translation to correspond than giving you proper explanation on Japanese Grammar.

> One last thing I saw om thejapanesepage.com is something about when to use which. The explanation was
A-naide B is used for sentences like "Do B without doing A" and nakute for "not do A, and do B"
Is that thing for right sentence-structures?
Example:.Go to school without watching TV! (てをみていないで、がっこうにいけ)
You can't eat sushi,.but you can eat udon. (あなたはすしをたべなくて、しかしうどんをたべれ。)
Right? I really hope so.
=> These Japanese are not correct in many levels. First sentece is still close to correct.
Please be careful that いけ is very strong to say "Go".
テレビをみていないで、がっこうにいきなさい。would be more proper in many situations.
The second line is completely different case. It's not たべなくて; the correct imperative is not たべれ.
しかし doesn't fit in here....

I don't think it's really a good idea for you to go into complicated sentences since you don't know yet the basic
pattern and usages. This ～ないで doesn't really mean "without". There're too many things you need to know,
so giving a bit of information would lead you to get used to use Japanese in wrong way.
Please do understand; first basic and then application. There's no the other way around. Failing is easy by
not following instructions, right?

Hope you understand.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Natsuko sensei.

This will not be easy (since I´m a very stubborn man,) but.... (sigh!) Ok. I will try and let it be for now. But since I´m just a free-member here, I can´t really learn about the te-form and it´s uses here, (unfortunately)

And thejapanesepage.com when talking abot te-form just takes up how to make it in positive form. And searching wit google gives, well, wikipedia at best.

I don´t know where to learn this, if not here so.... ah well:( for now, I´ll have to go with sentences like "ikanaide kudasai (please don´t go), and "minaide yo!" (don´t look)

a thought (this is later than when I first posted and edited this post) Is it possible that -nakute is used when listing negative adjectives or events you have not done (like -kute with i-adjectives?

also, in sentences like "i could not do this, so I did that " is nakute used?

a couple of examples:
1.これはちいさなくてあおいですおいしいです this is not small and blue. It's delicious
2. 私はおよいでことがなくててにすをしてことがない I havent swam and I haven't played tennis.
3. 私ははこにみたことができなくて、だからいかなければならなかった。- I couldn't look into the box, and therefore I had to go
4. 私は彼女をみつけてことができなくて家にいった。- I couldn't find her, so I went home
5. かれはさがした、かのじょを 見つけたことっができなくて、いえにいった。- He searched, he couldn't find her and be went home


(The reason for this last three sentence is something i read on another site: nakute implies the logical flow of the conjunction; in other words, the cause and the effect are described in the conjunction,
while naide describes the state or condition by the phrase up to naide, followed by the subsequent verb describing the main clause. This paragraph made me write that last sentence. (cause and effect.)

Lastly, a dialog between a father and his son. (I'll take it in roumanji)
Musuko: watashi wa kore to kore to kore o shita koto ga arimasu
Otou: Sou ka?
Musuko: Hai.
Otou: Oke de, anata wa kyou, nani o shita koto ga nai no ka?
Musuko: Ano.... eiga o mita koto ga nakute, hon o yonda koto ga nakute, ongaku o kiita koto ga nakute, eto.... Iie, sore desu.
Otou: Hontou.....?
Musuko: Hai Otousan.

and in English

Son: I have done this, and this, and this.
Father: Is that so?
Son: Yes
Father: OK, and what haven't you done today?
Son: Um.... I haven't watched a movie, and i haven't read a book, and I haven't listened to music, and eh... No, that's ut
Father: Really....?
Son: Yes Father.

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

P.S. It is now 8-gatsu 11-nichi and I've read a little, partly the paragraph from this post, and also now on Wikipedia, and this is how I see it concerning -nakute: -nakute is used when combing adjectives like " not big and not scary" but also when connecting certain sentences, like "I didn't do this, i didn't do this" or "I couldn't do this and. (because of that) this happened. (cause & effect)

[community.japanese]

Dan-san,
sorry for late reply.

This issue of "naide vs nakute", especially when "nakute" involves verbs, it is really not easy to explain
in a short simple description.

> Is it possible that -nakute is used when listing negative adjectives or events you have not done (like -kute with i-adjectives?
=> Negative adjectives, yes. I'm not sure what you mean with "events you have not done".

> also, in sentences like "i could not do this, so I did that " is nakute used?
=> The point is "nakute" with verb has different meaning from "naide". This English sentence doesn't help
in order to say yes/no.
Please understand that the best I could explain was what I've already written in previous comments.

As to your examples, I'll give you the correct answers.
> a couple of examples:
1.これはちいさなくてあおいですおいしいです this is not small and blue. It's delicious
=> これは、ちいさくなくて、あおいです。おいしいです。

2. 私はおよいでことがなくててにすをしてことがない I havent swam and I haven't played tennis.
=> 私は、およいだことがなくて、テニスをしたこともない。

3. 私ははこにみたことができなくて、だからいかなければならなかった。- I couldn't look into the box, and therefore I had to go
=> 私は、はこの　なか　を　みることが　できなかったので、　いかなければ　ならなかった。
(Please note that this Japanese sentence doesn't make much sense)

4. 私は彼女をみつけてことができなくて家にいった。- I couldn't find her, so I went home
=> 私は、彼女をみつけることが　できなかった　ので、家にいきました。

5. かれはさがした、かのじょを 見つけたことっができなくて、いえにいった。- He searched, he couldn't find her and be went home
=> 彼は、彼女を探したけれど、見つけることが　できず（ORできなかったので）、家に　いったORかえった。

The biggest reason why I've been asking you to learn grammar properly is because you'd end up making
sentences full of mistakes otherwise. Unfortunately, those example sentences prove it.
It is VERY easy to get confused and make mistakes in a easy grammar level such as linking adjectives.
If you don't master that and yet go on to the next level, it's more than obvious that you'll make more mistakes
with new kind of mistakes. When you reach that point, it is really difficult to go back and get everything right.
The worst happens to particles. "Step by step" has reasons to be "correct recommended way".
Please understand that I've been giving instructions and advice for your sake. After some time of confusing yourself
voluntarily, you'll probably not know where to start to correct. I want to avoid such situation.
Also, You don't even end sentences properly with 。 and that's a very basic rule.


In the conversation example, usage of "nakute" is correct.
"eiga o mita koto ga nakute, hon o yonda koto ga nakute, ongaku o kiita koto ga nakute, ..."


You could be a free member here on our website, but if you can buy any grammar book, you can learn from the
book. Unfortunately, like my university professor told us, language learning takes time and money and I believe that's
true. Any study/learning takes money, but JapanesePod101 requires a very little investment and
so does buying one book. You can post questions and ask us grammar issues, and we'll be happy to help you.
However, we cannot give you whole lecture to teach from zero about each grammar.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[mmmason8967]

... I´m just a free-member here, I can´t really learn about the te-form and it´s uses here...

As Natsuko-sensei says, that's a bit of a critical problem! Understanding the te-form isn't really optional

For me the JPod101 premium membership has been well worth the price of entry. Of course, I don't know your personal circumstances and that may very well not be an option at the moment. Other resources that I can definitely recommend are:-

Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese website is well-known and guides you through a structured explanation of Japanese grammar. It's completely free--in fact, it's released under the Gnu Public License (if that means anything to you).

Almost all the books published by Kodansha seem to be good. One I particularly like is Jay Rubin's Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You. It's not a grammar book: it's a series of essays about how Japanese works and why English speakers have problems learning it.

Another book I like is Demystifying Japanese by Eriko Sato. It's a Japanese grammar course that starts off with the basics and introduces kanji very early on using a cleverly chosen vocabulary that quickly has you reading 'real' Japanese (although roumaji is retained in case you get stuck). The grammar points are explained succinctly and build on each other as you go along.

マイケル

[Tracel]

Hi Dan,

I agree with both 奈津子さん　and マイケルさん。 It is really important that you approach learning any language in a structured manner. The structure that a text will give you, allows you to build up your skills gradually, adding to your knowledge as you improve. Both a good language text or a good internet site will teach you the basic building blocks, such as the -te verb form, first so that you can go forward from there.

Trying to learn a language without this kind of structure would be very frustrating and really not very rewarding I would imagine. Textbooks are great, and there are plenty of them out there, but if you don't have anything yet, I highly recommend getting a basic membership with Japanese Pod 101. They have the lessons all set out for you. The lessons are funny and teach you lots of grammar points along the way. And best of all, you have a great support network built in. Each lesson has a comment section if you need to ask a question about the content or grammar. A regular text book doesn't give you that.

I must admit that I was a bit leery about an online language course at first (sorry Natsuko-san), but after using it for a bit, I signed up hook, line, and sinker.

Good luck,
Tracel

[danfernold7261]

Konnichiha minna-san

I get your points, that learning the right way is important, but most good sites use kanji, and well...
i get hiragana and kata kana I can learn but... kanji....

another thing is, that´s just the kind of person I am, I can´t let something go, when it´s in my head. "shimaimashita."

I mean, why doesn´t -nakute (or na kute) don´t work like a listing pattern for actions you haven´t done, or actions you did not do?
-nakute with i-adjectives. Yes, that´s clear.
as for all the -te forms.... (tabenakute mo ii - It´s okay if you don´t eat
hanashitakunakute mo ii - It´s okay if you don´t want to speak.

it consumes me.... to not know the right answer. Ahhh!!! watashi wa kusodame yo (or at least that is how I feel about myself right now. (Pardon the harsh language,)

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

[community.japanese]

マイケルさん、Tracel さん、Dan さん、
Thank you very much for helpful comments, マイケルsan adn Tracel-san!

I get your points, that learning the right way is important, but most good sites use kanji, and well...
i get hiragana and kata kana I can learn but... kanji....

If you can get a textbook like Japanese for busy people, they explain everything in English and
many books have kana versions and romaji versions.

another thing is, that´s just the kind of person I am, I can´t let something go, when it´s in my head. "shimaimashita."

I mean, why doesn´t -nakute (or na kute) don´t work like a listing pattern for actions you haven´t done, or actions you did not do?
-nakute with i-adjectives. Yes, that´s clear.
as for all the -te forms.... (tabenakute mo ii - It´s okay if you don´t eat
hanashitakunakute mo ii - It´s okay if you don´t want to speak.

You see, this is exactly why you need to learn step by step. The main reason why you can't understand those
is because you don't know the basics. Those phrases are both "applied usage" of te-form.
Without basic, there's no applications.
I don't know what you wanted to say with "shimaimashita", but I'm pretty sure it also came from "translation dependent"
memory. Sorry if I sound too strict, but teaching and helping learners are what JapanesePod101.com does,
so do I. If learners don't want to listen to advice or instruction from teachers, we can't help them.

You can ask the "correct meaning/answer" about certain sentences. What you can't do is to take the answer
as if it applies to any cases and not try to study and understand the key point properly.
And this is my biggest concern.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

with shimaimashita I meant unfortunately (which when I think about is used with -te form, am I right?)

as for the rest... I answered "Is this right" before this one, so sono o yonde kudasai

yoroshiku

Dan Fernold

[community.japanese]

Dan-san,

as for the rest... I answered "Is this right" before this one, so sono o yonde kudasai

It's "SORE o yonde kudasai".
I gave you correct answers for free. I explained repeately that simply explanation wouldn't work and I can't
help you like that. I don't know what else you're expecting by "please read that".
Maybe I didn't even have to give you corrections?

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[danfernold7261]

Natsuko-sensei

I was going for "that one" "Please read that one" that´s why I wrote "sono"

but if it´s sore, then OK.

Yoroshiku

Dan Fernold