Double negatives, double copula

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

From Intermediate Lesson 20: Sayuri's Back:

Japanese (written by me, no romaji is given in the lesson notes):

"Shin'yuu ga inakunatari, shigoto ga nakunatari, kanari taihen dattan da"

Japanese (from lesson notes, kanji):

親友がいなくなったり、仕事がなくなったり。かなり大変だったんだ。

English (from lesson notes):

I lost my best friend, my job, and... It was pretty bad.

I have two problems with this sentence.

My first problem is "dattan da." "Dattan" is the plain past tense of "desu" and "da" is the plain present form of "desu". This is the same word repeated twice. Once in the past tense, once in the present tense. Why? Why not just "dattan"?

My second problem is with "inakunatari" and "nakunatari" from the verbs "iru" and "aru". I apologise if I don't explain this well, because it's complicated...

If I wanted to put "iru" into the past negative tense I'd say "inakatta" or "inakattari." However, it looks like the dialogue has added "kunai." As in, they've taken the verb ("iru" - "to be") made it negative ("inai" - "not to be") added "kunai" ("inakunai" - "not not to be") then made it past ("inakunata" - "not not to be [past]) plus "tari".

Why add "kunai" if "inai" is already negative? This creates a double negative which equals a positive.

[community.japanese]

andy-san,

1. My first problem is "dattan da." "Dattan" is the plain past tense of "desu" and "da" is the plain present form of "desu". This is the same word repeated twice. Once in the past tense, once in the present tense. Why? Why not just "dattan"?
=> "datta" is the past tense of "da". When we express something as kind of "confession", we add "n" and often say "...n desu". This applies also to "da": "...n da". When we use this expression with past tense, it's always "datta"+ "ndesu"/"nda".
In a polite way, "taihendatta n desu", and casual way, "taihendatta n da".

2. My second problem is with "inakunatari" and "nakunatari" from the verbs "iru" and "aru". I apologise if I don't explain this well, because it's complicated...
If I wanted to put "iru" into the past negative tense I'd say "inakatta" or "inakattari." However, it looks like the dialogue has added "kunai." As in, they've taken the verb ("iru" - "to be") made it negative ("inai" - "not to be") added "kunai" ("inakunai" - "not not to be") then made it past ("inakunata" - "not not to be [past]) plus "tari".
=> That's fine! It's normal this sounds complicated. First, this pattern is "....tari, ....tari" using "...naru" (= something becomes or gets certain status).
When someone disappears, we use the expression "inaku naru", literally meaning "to get to be non-existing".
Same thing with "nakunaru" (something disappears): "naku naru", literally meaning "to become non-existing".
Both are conjugated from "inai" and "nai". It's rather "inaku + naru" and "naku + naru".

3. Why add "kunai" if "inai" is already negative? This creates a double negative which equals a positive.
=> That's a good point! Well, grammatically, "nai" is just an adjective; although the meaning is "negative", it works
justs like any other adjectives. The word "inai" is, yes, the negative form of "iru".
Those two words "inai" and "nai" could be tricky. Anyway, now you know it's actually "...ku naru", instead of "ku nai"
(negative form for i-adjectives). "Inaku naru" doesn't have "ku nai" because it's the negative form of a verb "iru".

Hope this helps!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[ericf]

"datta" is the plain past. "~n da" is a conversational contraction of "~no da"/"~no desu" which implies that the sentence is an explanation. The explanation is in the present tense, what it's explaining is in the past tense.

"inakunatari" is two verbs & one negative, not two negatives & one verb. The two verbs are:
iru - to be ((which you realised of course)
naru - to become (indicating a change of state)

iru (the verb) -> inai (the negative) -> inaku (negative adjverbial form)
And it's this that's used with the verb "naru". "naru" is used in the alternative "tari" form.
inaku + nattari.

"inakatta" is past of "not there" as you've said but, since there's no change of state, it implies "was never there".
"inakunatta" means "was there but became not there".

[ericf]

Ha! Beaten to it! :-)

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Great explanation! I understand now!

Thanks!

[community.japanese]

エリックsan,
Thank you very much for your help!
Your explanation was smarter and shorter than mine

Andy-san,
glad "we" could help

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com