Pronunciation of ひと and ひとり

[mmmason8967]

Most of the time　ひ　is pronounced "hi" but in the case of　ひと　and　ひとり　something odd seems to happen with the pronunciation of　ひ. It gets pronounced a bit like　し　but not exactly like　し. What is happening here with the pronunciation? Is there a lesson somewhere on JapanesePod101 that covers it?

I'm finding it difficult to imitate the sound. If you said　ひとり　but pronounced the　ひ　like "hi", would you be understood by a native Japanese speaker?

[mwbeale6642]

I've noticed the same thing (hi -> shi). My sister pronounces ひとつ　as "shitotsu" and it always throws me. I guess you just need to get used to it.

[Javizy]

I believe that sort of し is some form of Tokyo dialect. I wouldn't worry about it too much as long as you can understand it.

I think as you get used to speaking more fluently, your ひ will sound more like what you're hearing from natives. You're probably just "over-pronouncing" at the moment since you're not used to the relatively short length of Japanese mora compared to English syllables. How would you judge the く in 奨学金 (press the play button on the left of the word for audio)? 取引先 illustrates it well. If you play the audio for 取引先, the woman "over-pronounces" the vowels in a way that wouldn't be heard during conversation, whereas the guy who does 信用取引先 does it more fluidly. You'll be understood whichever way you pronounce it, but the latter example sounds more natural and takes a lot less effort!

[jkerianjapanesepod5596]

Boaz Yaniv gave a very complete explanation of this phenomenon on JLU here: http://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/1441/29

[mmmason8967]

Boaz Yaniv gave a very complete explanation of this phenomenon on JLU here: http://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/1441/29

Thanks for the link: that's a very enlightening article.

I'd noticed that if you listen carefully to male Japanese speakers, when they do 's' sounds they seem to be very close to lisping. When I try to imitate that sound I've noticed that I can't say 'SI'; it comes out as 'SHI'. I wonder if this is what Japanese speakers are actually doing. That is, they just say SA-SI-SU-SE-SO using the same 'S' sound each time, but an English speaker trying to imitate them using the English 'S' sound has to do something special to get the SI to sound right.

And is it the same with TA-TI-TU-TE-TO? That is, if you know how to make the correct kind of 'T' sound, saying 'TA-TI-TU-TE-TO' will come out the way it's supposed to.

[boku1571]

I notice a lot of people are simplifying this to simply make hi = shi in ひとり。

I'm far from an expert, but what I'm hearing most of the time is something in between. More like a "soft h" or an "aspirated h" where the tongue is just raised up a bit, but not quite moved forward as far as an "sh" sound.

[karmitthefrog6725]

boku1571-san, kon'nichiwa.
Good point.
People in Tokyo, especially elder people, tend to pronounce Hi as Shi.
This is famous as one of the Tokyo dialect.
Actually my grandmother grew up in Tokyo and she always pronounce hi, for example as in Hikouki, "airplane," as the sound between sh- and h-.
Motoko/JapanesePod101.com

[szink7807]

I had noticed that, but I always assumed it was because the japanese "h" sound is not a hard "h" like in engish "hit" or "hello", but a softer "h" closer to an un-aspirated "f". In some instances it's almost the sound of air passing unperturbed out of the mouth, so it might tend to take on different nuances based on the sound that comes after it. For instance, when I say the "to" in "hitori", I notice that my upper teeth come into close contact with my tongue. Now if I add a soft, un-aspirated "hi" sound before that, in the transition between the first sound the the next, I definitely hear a hissing sound from the fact of the air being suddenly forced out of a narrower space. So it's like "hi-sh-tori". And of course, something like that would easily be compressed to a more "shi" like sound. I'm not sure, that's just my (admittedly) armchair phonetic analysis.

[natsukoy9313]

szink7807-san,
Great analysis!!
I think you're right; when we speak in normal speed, I think we tend to drop the "hi" sound anyway. It's rather hissing sound, like you said.
It's just a matter of facilitating pronunciation

Natsuko/JapanesePod101.com

[Frankforjapamesepod2511]

I've noticed the same thing (hi -> shi). My sister pronounces ひとつ　as "shitotsu" and it always throws me. I guess you just need to get used to it.

I don't think it's pronounced in the same way. Hi sounds like more the "ch" sound in the german words "ich, dich, fertig, zwanzig..."
for me it's easy because indeed i know German, for those wo don't know it maybe could sound exactly like sh...

[natsukoy9313]

Frankforjapamesepod2511-san,
Yes, you're right.

"Hi" should be pronounced like "ch" in German.
However, it's true that some eldery people in Tokyo might pronounce just like "shi".
"Shi" should be pronounced with "shhhhhhhh" in English.

Natsuko,
JapanesePod101.com