Dictionary with pitch accent?

[Sp3ctre18]

Hi everyone, I've already done a search here and looked through some topics. It's been asked before but when someone had an answer, it was either a place with audio, or a site that was all in Japanese.

I don't need any more places with audio though; for words with kanji, the best kanji dictionary I've found is the one at www.saiga-jp.com/kanji_dictionary.html and it has audio, and I did save the links I found in my search to other dictionaries.

But a lot of times I don't have access to audio due to where I am, so I'd rather SEE it written some how, ie, 子供 = koDOMO, 雨 = Ame, 飴 = aME. I AM aware that pitch may change depending on where it is in a sentence, btw; but I'm still needing of a resource like this.

Thanks!

[Javizy]

If you're looking for a JDICT implementation including pitch accent, then I think you're out of luck. It's a shame nobody thought of this when it was originally developed. g00 and 三省堂 used to have pitch codes, but for some inexplicable reason, they've been removed. You can still see it using 大辞林 on Yahoo! (there's an off-line version on the iTunes Store) The number codes correspond to the following, and appear after the word in subscript:

0 low-high (no pitch)
1 high-low (initial high pitch)
2 low-high-low
3 low-high-high-low
4 low-high-high-high-low
5 low-high-high-high-high-low
6 low-high-high-high-high-high-low

You might be able to see that the number essentially tells you how many mora it takes before the pitch is lowered again.

[untmdsprt]

[url]http://www.amazon.co.jp/NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典-NHK放送文化研究所/dp/4140111127[/url]


I bought this and highly recommend it.

[j_bertoni2279]

Some of the electronic dictionaries include the NHK dictionary listed in the previous thread (or at least part of it). I use a Casio XD-A10000 that includes it.

[j_bertoni2279]

Some of the electronic dictionaries include the NHK dictionary listed in the previous thread (or at least part of it). I use a Casio XD-A10000 that inclues it.

[Alexandre]

@Javizy -- you are mistaken about the meaning of the number.

Your mostly incorrect about the meaning of the number. The number indicates where the high pitch that is followed by a low pitch (also called a downfall) is located, or none if it's zero.

1 indicates the last mora is high
2 indicates the last morae are high-low
etc.

There can be as many morae as you want before the accented mora: they will all be high except the first, which will be low.

[mieth]

I don't think that spending all that time trying to learn pronunciation by reading the pitch accent in dictionaries is going to get you very far. My English students would try to do this sometimes and they never had much success with it. I recommend just listening to some more Japanese instead. Load up keyhole and just let it roll. Don't worry about things like oh noes they are going to think I said rain when I really meant candy. Or about being worried about asking someone what the toll is to drive over the chop sticks. You gotta spend that time tuning your ear instead. Do some shadowing. Or just listen listen listen. Good luck.

[Alexandre]

I don't think that spending all that time trying to learn pronunciation by reading the pitch accent in dictionaries is going to get you very far.

We wouldn't have to do that if the proper resources existed, such as manuals or flashcards that contained pitch info. Learning each word's pitch does take forever, UNLESS you understand the system and know what patterns to expect. I've yet to meet a teacher who can explain why taBEru becomes TAbete; I had to figure it out on my own.

[mieth]

I can tell you exactly why there is that difference. Because every Japanese person and their mom as a society has made it that way. But those intonation changes will also change depending on where in Japan you are. Yes Japanese resources are slim pickings but they are there if you dig hard enough. there is youtube, keyhole, podcasts, amazon, etc. You probably have a student from Japan who would love the opportunity to tutor you for 10 bucks an hour that is attending a community college near you. Trying to read pitch accents off of flash cards on your own is going to get your nowhere. I wouldn't even recommend being concerned at all about your accent until you have listened to 1000 hours of Japanese. And after you listen to 1000 hours of Japanese you will probably feel a little bit foolish trying to go back to a dictionary to find out the pronunciation for a word that you have never heard before. If you are just getting started spending time worrying about something like this is like shooting yourself in the foot before a marathon.

[Javizy]

I can tell you exactly why there is that difference. Because every Japanese person and their mom as a society has made it that way. But those intonation changes will also change depending on where in Japan you are. Yes Japanese resources are slim pickings but they are there if you dig hard enough. there is youtube, keyhole, podcasts, amazon, etc. You probably have a student from Japan who would love the opportunity to tutor you for 10 bucks an hour that is attending a community college near you. Trying to read pitch accents off of flash cards on your own is going to get your nowhere. I wouldn't even recommend being concerned at all about your accent until you have listened to 1000 hours of Japanese. And after you listen to 1000 hours of Japanese you will probably feel a little bit foolish trying to go back to a dictionary to find out the pronunciation for a word that you have never heard before. If you are just getting started spending time worrying about something like this is like shooting yourself in the foot before a marathon.

I don't subscribe to this approach at all. Spending a couple of hours reading about the concept of pitch, and maybe practising the patterns with a native until you can recognise/produce them will give you the awareness you need to make the most of your 1000 hours of input. Otherwise, you're just ignorantly listening to something you don't even know exists in a hope of mastering it. If this were so effective, there probably wouldn't be so many Americans who suck balls at general pronunciation, let alone pitch accent.

As for feeling stupid for looking up a word you've never heard pronounced, why? Surely having not heard it after 1000 hours leaves you with no choice. Wouldn't you feel stupider being corrected during conversation, assuming someone was kind enough to do that for you? How hard is it to notice the 1 next to 示唆 on 三省堂 and know that it's pronounced HL. Yes, exposure is much more important, but that doesn't mean you should ignore a few simple concepts that make it a lot more effective.

@Javizy -- you are mistaken about the meaning of the number.

Your mostly incorrect about the meaning of the number. The number indicates where the high pitch that is followed by a low pitch (also called a downfall) is located, or none if it's zero.

1 indicates the last mora is high
2 indicates the last morae are high-low
etc.

There can be as many morae as you want before the accented mora: they will all be high except the first, which will be low.

Huh? The patterns I posted for 2-7 did indicate that, but you're incorrect about 1. Try listening to 雨, which is pattern 1 (HL), as you can see here.

[Alexandre]

I can tell you exactly why there is that difference. Because every Japanese person and their mom as a society has made it that way. But those intonation changes will also change depending on where in Japan you are. Yes Japanese resources are slim pickings but they are there if you dig hard enough. there is youtube, keyhole, podcasts, amazon, etc. You probably have a student from Japan who would love the opportunity to tutor you for 10 bucks an hour that is attending a community college near you. Trying to read pitch accents off of flash cards on your own is going to get your nowhere. I wouldn't even recommend being concerned at all about your accent until you have listened to 1000 hours of Japanese. And after you listen to 1000 hours of Japanese you will probably feel a little bit foolish trying to go back to a dictionary to find out the pronunciation for a word that you have never heard before. If you are just getting started spending time worrying about something like this is like shooting yourself in the foot before a marathon.

I don't subscribe to this approach at all. Spending a couple of hours reading about the concept of pitch, and maybe practising the patterns with a native until you can recognise/produce them will give you the awareness you need to make the most of your 1000 hours of input. Otherwise, you're just ignorantly listening to something you don't even know exists in a hope of mastering it. If this were so effective, there probably wouldn't be so many Americans who suck balls at general pronunciation, let alone pitch accent.

While you were waiting for the 1000 hour mark, I was learning how to have conversations with natives. On my last trip to Japan, I spoke only Japanese for 3 weeks. I meet native speakers once a week and I can have pretty long discussions in Japanese. Good luck fixing your accent after a few years of study.

A good accent is something you work on from day one, something that improves with time as your understanding of the system improves. If mistakes don't come out and aren't corrected, they become habits.

@Javizy -- you are mistaken about the meaning of the number.

Your mostly incorrect about the meaning of the number. The number indicates where the high pitch that is followed by a low pitch (also called a downfall) is located, or none if it's zero.

1 indicates the last mora is high
2 indicates the last morae are high-low
etc.

There can be as many morae as you want before the accented mora: they will all be high except the first, which will be low.

Huh? The patterns I posted for 2-7 did indicate that, but you're incorrect about 1. Try listening to 雨, which is pattern 1 (HL), as you can see here.[/quote]
I'm sorry, you're right! I was mixed up with other sources that use a minus system for verb endings, such as -te being a -3 ending. My apologies. The Shinmeikai uses a system of bars instead of numbers.

[Javizy]

While you were waiting for the 1000 hour mark, I was learning how to have conversations with natives. On my last trip to Japan, I spoke only Japanese for 3 weeks. I meet native speakers once a week and I can have pretty long discussions in Japanese. Good luck fixing your accent after a few years of study.

I did correct my accent after a couple of years of study, and having conversations doesn't mean your accent doesn't need work. I speak as often as I can find a partner, and it's about the only way I feel my speaking abilities improve, but hardly what I'd consider the most effective or reliable way to learn pronunciation, especially from the beginning. Whatever your view on this, you can't deny the need for exposure. In fact, speaking tends to be half exposure anyway if you pay attention to what your friend is saying.

A good accent is something you work on from day one, something that improves with time as your understanding of the system improves. If mistakes don't come out and aren't corrected, they become habits.

This is true, and it's why I'm suggesting people should train themselves to recognise/produce the patterns in my original post before they start ploughing into exposure and trying to speak. It's no use receiving corrections from your friend telling you to say HL instead of LH when you can't even distinguish the difference, just like exposure will be less effective for the same reason. And who's to say your friend won't say 'yeah, that's right' when you're still speaking with stress and syllables? Natives tend to be overrated.

[Alexandre]

While you were waiting for the 1000 hour mark, I was learning how to have conversations with natives. On my last trip to Japan, I spoke only Japanese for 3 weeks. I meet native speakers once a week and I can have pretty long discussions in Japanese. Good luck fixing your accent after a few years of study.

I did correct my accent after a couple of years of study, and having conversations doesn't mean your accent doesn't need work. I speak as often as I can find a partner, and it's about the only way I feel my speaking abilities improve, but hardly what I'd consider the most effective or reliable way to learn pronunciation, especially from the beginning. Whatever your view on this, you can't deny the need for exposure. In fact, speaking tends to be half exposure anyway if you pay attention to what your friend is saying.

A good accent is something you work on from day one, something that improves with time as your understanding of the system improves. If mistakes don't come out and aren't corrected, they become habits.

This is true, and it's why I'm suggesting people should train themselves to recognise/produce the patterns in my original post before they start ploughing into exposure and trying to speak. It's no use receiving corrections from your friend telling you to say HL instead of LH when you can't even distinguish the difference, just like exposure will be less effective for the same reason. And who's to say your friend won't say 'yeah, that's right' when you're still speaking with stress and syllables? Natives tend to be overrated.

Are you arguing that 100 hours of exposure through TV is more worthwhile than the equivalent spent talking with natives? TV is a good substitute for when you don't have access to a native speaker, but it's nowhere near as effective. There is nothing more efficient than learning a word in context because you needed to express it or to understand it, or guessing a word because of context and realizing a minute later you need that same word to explain something. If a native speaker indicates a different pitch, and you don't understand how it works, then learn it. That's what we're trying to do. My language partner corrects my pitch and if I get it wrong the next time, she gives me a look, and I correct myself. There's no way I'm waiting for 1000 hours.

[Javizy]

Are you arguing that 100 hours of exposure through TV is more worthwhile than the equivalent spent talking with natives? TV is a good substitute for when you don't have access to a native speaker, but it's nowhere near as effective. There is nothing more efficient than learning a word in context because you needed to express it or to understand it, or guessing a word because of context and realizing a minute later you need that same word to explain something. If a native speaker indicates a different pitch, and you don't understand how it works, then learn it. That's what we're trying to do. My language partner corrects my pitch and if I get it wrong the next time, she gives me a look, and I correct myself. There's no way I'm waiting for 1000 hours.

I don't think anyone's suggested waiting 1000 hours for anything. I'm not even sure what we're debating exactly. How to learn pitch accent, the effectiveness of speaking, the usefulness of exposure? What's 'more worthwhile' is completely subjective, since it depends on your goals, study methods etc. Personally, I want to be able to understand all kinds of Japanese, which is why I read novels, watch films and listen to the news etc, in addition to speaking with natives. I can't hope to know what a typical Japanese knows without being exposed to some of what they've been for the last 20+ years, and that's not just the language, but the culture too.

[seifip]

From what I've heard and as far as I know the only good dictionaries with pitch accents for every Japanese word are Chinese, and these are unfortunately sold in china. So unless you have some friends in China who could visit a local bookstore for you, or there is a White Rabbit Express like service for Chinese products, then you're probably out of luck