particle "koto" and relative clauses in conversati

[arixion7914]

I was reading Basic Japanese Grammar a few days ago, and it said that relative clauses are simply prepended to the object in question. I wish to ask then how one would distinguish nested relative clauses in spoken sentences from successive sentences.

For instance:

English: The man that gave me the red and black car is over there

According to <<Basic Japanese Grammar>> Japanese (Romaji) is:-

akai to kuroi desu kurusuma o agata hitori ga asoko ni desu

Of course, it can also be translated into:-

(I am) red and black (Someone) gave me a car there is a person over there.

How could you get which it is?

Also, does the particle "koto" designate a preceding relative clause? "koto" is called the noun=making particle... after all ...

Regards,
Raphael

[iaai]

Um I'm sorry but that Japanese sentence from your book looks like complete nonsense to me. I'm very confused about how to interpret it too!

Here's my attempt at translating the English:

akai to kuroi kuruma o kureta hito wa asoko ni imasu.

kuruma = car (not kurusuma )
kureta = past form of the verb kureru which means 'give to me' (I assume the book meant to say ageta, which means 'gave to', but kureru is used more often when the speaker is the receiver. Ageru is usually used when talking about external people)
hito = person (I thinks it sounds better than hitori, 'one person')
imasu = to be, for animate objects (since ni desu at the end of your sentence makes no sense)

In my sentence, the noun modifying clause is 'akai to kuroi kuruma o kureta', modifying the noun 'hito'.

As for koto, I'm sure it's actually a noun, rather than a particle, and it means 'thing' but used in a very general sense. The word for a concrete 'thing' is mono.
Koto is very often modified using noun modifying clauses, much like the one above. For example, you can use plain-form verbs before koto to modify it. Shashin o toru means 'to take a photograph', but shashin o toru koto means 'taking photographs', the general activity, used in a general sense.
So to answer your question, yes, it often does designate a preceding modifying clause, BUT it is used as a noun rather than just a marker.

Hope that helps!!
Jordan x

[j_bertoni2279]

I think you need a better grammar book, or to try less complicated structures.

"to" is not use to connect verbs or adjectivals. "desu" and similar polite verbs are not generally used in relative clauses. "desu" is replaced by "no" or "na", depending on what it is following.

aka to kuro no kurumu o kureta hito (ga or wa) asoko ni iru.

That's one possibility. "iru" could be made polite: imasu

I turned the adjectivals into nouns. You could use adjectivals if you worked at it.

[arixion7914]

I think you need a better grammar book, or to try less complicated structures.

"to" is not use to connect verbs or adjectivals. "desu" and similar polite verbs are not generally used in relative clauses. "desu" is replaced by "no" or "na", depending on what it is following.

aka to kuro no kurumu o kureta hito (ga or wa) asoko ni iru.

That's one possibility. "iru" could be made polite: imasu

I turned the adjectivals into nouns. You could use adjectivals if you worked at it.

Simply removing the "i" at the end of an adjective changes it into a noun?

Is there a connector for adjectivals then? An online translator I was using yesterday used the word "soshite" to link two adjectives together.

Perhaps, I need a better grammar book. But I need a book that deal with sufficiently complex grammar, without excessively arcane terminology.

I am still trying to deal with "-tara" and "-naka" forms.

Perhaps you could make a reccommendation?

[iaai]

I used the Japanese For Busy People series of textbooks due to its concise content, which was fairly good, but I've heard lots of great things about the Genki textbook series too. And then there's always the lessons on this website for the grammar points you don't quite understand! =D

[j_bertoni2279]

Some adjectives can be turned into nouns by dropping the "i" at the end, but not all. I think Jorden's book "Japanese, The Spoken Language" might be okay, but it's been a long time since I used a textbook, and the one I used is out of print.

Soshite won't connect adjectivals in that way. You could use the te form, although using the colors themselves is what I've seen before.

[Javizy]

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar will answer all your questions, and you can review the sentences with the premade Anki deck.