Can Iphone/Ipod touch serve a a real japanese dictionary?

[Ivo]

Well If I am not wrong, there's an application that allows all the Jim Breen's dictionaries and Eijiro to be searched at the same time:
http://itunes.apple.com/app/ebpocket-pr ... 39933?mt=8
It costs only 5$. I have not yet tried it so I can't say how user-friendly the interface is. What do you think of this option?

I downloaded the free version, but haven't time to check it out at the moment. It looks interesting I'll post again tomorrow after I've had a look.

Belton, could I ask you to maybe describe also in brief how you did that install.
I will be asking a friend of mine to download some Japanese applications next week to try it on his Ipod first before buying myself one. So I'd like him to install the ebpocket as well. The issue is though that he might not want to spend too much time trying to get it running...so i should give him pretty clear instructions as to how to install the dictionaries.

[Belton]

Now I understand that I can't past and copy from one window to the other (i.e. need to use notepad) . But if I got it right, you are saying that you can use IME Pad without any problems? Well that would solve some of the issues I guess.

I checked it out last night Windows XP in Parallels. The Mac side doesn't understand the insert call from the IME Pad so you need to insert to (Windows)Notepad or something else then copy from there. If a later version of the IME Pad can use the clipboard you might be able to find a way to paste into a Mac program without going through NotePad.
That said Axiotron's Quickscript may well provide the functionality you're looking for natively on the Mac side.

That sounds really good. I will have to look into the program once I have my MBP here. How much did you pay for that software? Too bad that my Macbook isn't a tablet...for with that type of software it would be a perfect machine for working with Japanese text, amongst others.

Nothing yet! I've been using their free betas. But I'll stump up the $30 for production version I think.
Axiotron convert MacBooks into tablets which is why they developed it I guess.
I was hoping the iPad would run Mac OS and have a pen. ha!

EBPocket
Super, please let me know what you think of it. I've read somewhere that this is the best app for Ipod and Japanese dictionaries out there these days. I mean if you can combine all the Breen's dictionaries + eijiro it'd say that's a great deal. I am not sure that you can get sample sentences from the Tanaka corpus...I think that's where Breen is getting his sample sentences from. If that was possible such software would be close to perfect for very little money.

Well basically it's a reader for Epwing format dictionaries. It ships with Edict, you need to add other dictionaries yourself via FTP.
Eijiro comes as plain text so you would need to convert it. Not entirely easy by the accounts on Japanese language tools.
There are a fair amount of commercial Japanese dictionaries available in this format, but they seem to cost at least 1万円 per volume.
Good news is that someone has converted Jim Breen's examples
http://www.hloeffler.info/epwing/#exmpl

Unfortunately EBPocket doesn't seem to support copying from the result. This is a major limitation I feel, you can email yourself from the pro version so there's a workaround but wtf? If they ever fix this I might buy it (at least it's cheap), but for now my modest needs are met with what I already have.

That said I am really worried about switching to OS X and the whole architecture. My sense is that Apple is very restrictive and sometimes outright pushy when it comes to user experience.

I think once you're working in a program there's not that much overall difference, there's just what you are used to.
At least if it all gets too foreign you can just install Linux or Windows and boot into them. Best of all worlds.
I think Apple's viewpoint over control is to keep a consistent user experience for the masses rather than allow for the nerdier computer users. They try to mask the complexities and in doing so take some control away.
With the IPhone they've really gone to town.
The trade off in the App store is they've made $1 apps financially viable. When was the last time you saw a $1 shareware self published application? As gate keepers they filter some of the crap out. And as most stuff is in one place it's a little easier to find. Although the app store could do with tags or subcategories.
I don't know short of building a device from scratch and writing your own software you're going to be playing by somebodies rules and limitations regardless.

Good luck with your MAC and iPod quest

[Belton]

Belton, could I ask you to maybe describe also in brief how you did that install.
I will be asking a friend of mine to download some Japanese applications next week to try it on his Ipod first before buying myself one. So I'd like him to install the ebpocket as well. The issue is though that he might not want to spend too much time trying to get it running...so i should give him pretty clear instructions as to how to install the dictionaries.

It's really simple.
You follow the link which should launch iTunes and go to that app in the app store. If not just do a search in iTunes of the store. Then you just "buy" it by clicking on the "Free App" buton. (It's free but you need an iTunes account and they send you a receipt for $0.00) iTunes then downloads it to your Hard disk. The next time you sync it copies it to your iPod. Then launch the app and off you go.
To uninstall I tap and hold the apps icon in the "Finder" on the iPod (don't know what it's officially called) All the icons start to jiggle and close checks appear in their top left corners. Now you can rearrange the icons or by clicking the close box uninstall them completely.
You can also install direct to the iPod using the Apps store app.

For PBPocket getting any extra dictionaries in is a bit more complex (you need to FTP them). Apple doesn't allow access via USB for non Apple apps to sync data. It has to be done by WiFi. This means an FTP or Web interface is often used depending on the app. If you do add extras they will be deleted automatically as part of the uninstall process though. So your friend shouldn't worry about orphan files filling up his iPod.

I've no idea about transferring licenses though.
So it might be best not to buy any paid apps in the hope of transferring them to your own device when you get it. I think it's the same DRM as music in that you are tied to 5 computers (but effectively unlimited iPods) and need to deregister computers to install on new computers over that 5 machine limit. But I'd have to check it has never been an issue for me and I've had a couple of iPods and Macs since iTunes first came out. (although I really need to de-register my previous computer)

[Ivo]

Belton, thank you so much for all your responses. I might still come back to this thread, but let me for now try to test the Ipod and I will let you know guys what I've decided. Seems though that i might become another Ipod touch user.

[Ivo]

Belton and Javizy, are you guys still around? Hope you are cause I wanted to discuss with you a few more issues.

So I had my first try today with the Ipod- yeah the device is quite impressive.
Though I need to say I was not so impressed with the Chinese handwriting input system - it does seem that it misses more kanji that I'd like it to. And what's more: you never know for sure whether one has just typed a kanji wrong or whether it doesn't exist in Chinese in the first place. That's quite a drawback in my opinion. While I did not find input with my finger being too imprecise (in fact it worked fine) I did find this limitation annoying. Also, unlike other input systems i know this one only offers you 4 alternatives....e.g. with my PDA the alternatives would 7-10etc..simply you would always find your kanji in a very fast manner. So yeah the Chinese input system is a disappointment (also for the fact that it doesn't recognize kana..so I have to switch from kana to Chinese input if I want to input a word that is a combination of both kanji and kana).
Now I've got two potential solutions:
I've read that ShinKanji offers its own alternative, Japanese input system. Look here fore more:
http://www.mrbass.org/iphone/japanese/kanji/
have you tried it?
It seems that this might mitigate the problem with Chinese input (though it would once again require to multitask..something i'll get back to).

OR
what about other solution: buying an IPOD in Japan. Would you know whether the Japanese version of IPod OS has its native Japanese input software? I know that this is what Window Mobile does (on my PDA) and its superb. So I thought maybe when they sell Ipods in Japan they also built in something more tailored to Japanese needs.
(though I understand that most Japanese will use kana to look up words as they know the reading of most kanji).

both of you said that you tend to look up kanji by radicals. Now I am a bit confused about that: does Ipod actually support looking up Japanese kanji by radicals? Or are you again looking up Chinese? I forgot to test that out.

Lastly, the new OS system. Javizy, you mentioned that multitasking will be possible. Will this apply to 3rd party programs (i.e. all programs) or will Apple limit it again to only some?

I think I am going to buy an Ipod but still want to make sure that I cover all my bases before doing so.

oh btw. I used free Kotoba on it today...it was quite alright..I do like the fact that it includes a fair amount of sentence examples now.
What i didn't like was that you can't easily move between the text in Kotoba and search..i.e. if you see an example and unknown kanji, you cannot select just that and look it up..you have to copy the whole sentence, then use the search function, paste it in...delete the unnecessary words...etc. this all becomes a bit too cumbersome.


hope you guys are still around.

[Belton]

Belton and Javizy, are you guys still around?

I don't think jPod forums will get rid of either of us anytime soon. We're part of the furniture.

Now I've got two potential solutions:
I've read that ShinKanji offers its own alternative, Japanese input system. Look here fore more:
http://www.mrbass.org/iphone/japanese/kanji/
have you tried it?
OR
what about other solution: buying an IPOD in Japan. Would you know whether the Japanese version of IPod OS has its native Japanese input software?

Haven't tried ShinKanji. I'll give it a look.
The iPod OS is universal. You get all flavours at once, the OS in Japan is no different.

both of you said that you tend to look up kanji by radicals. Now I am a bit confused about that: does Ipod actually support looking up Japanese kanji by radicals? Or are you again looking up Chinese? I forgot to test that out.

I haven't seen a system wide multi-radical input. It's implemented in Japanese dictionaries aimed at second language learners usually using data from the various Edict projects. radk and krad files usually.
Japanese people don't need this kind of support; they learnt all this in school so it hasn't made it into the Japanese system.
I think Apple's sandboxing of the system has meant that developers haven't come up with a Japanese handwriting input nor another system wide input system, because Apple won't let them implement it. I *think* the alternative keyboards I've seen are limited to their own apps.

Lastly, the new OS system. Javizy, you mentioned that multitasking will be possible. Will this apply to 3rd party programs (i.e. all programs) or will Apple limit it again to only some?

When it's implemented you'll be able to have multiple apps open at once. However the interaction between them may well be limited to copy and paste, or setting specific apps to handle specific document types.

What i didn't like was that you can't easily move between the text in Kotoba and search..i.e. if you see an example and unknown kanji, you cannot select just that and look it up..you have to copy the whole sentence, then use the search function, paste it in...delete the unnecessary words...etc. this all becomes a bit too cumbersome.

It is. But the problem is two-fold for the developer. Parsing the sentences into words and creating a cross referenced index for a dictionary. Neither can be done on the fly with any speed. Especially not on an iPod. It's a lot of work and the parsing solutions out there are not 100% accurate on their own. They would need to be proof read. It's a lot of work.
That said not impossible. But I think the programmers just buy the data ready indexed rather than doing it themselves. "Japanese Sensei" does it with their example sentences. (If you tap and hold a parsed sentence pops up asking you which part you want to search for. But it isn't designed as a dictionary so would have other limitations)

[Belton]

Had a look at Shin Kanji's handwriting search.

The input is using the Taka project. I remember this from PADict on the Palm. Very dependant on correct stroke order and direction. Try 火　左　and 右 which are commonly written incorrectly in terms of stroke order to see this limitation. (All it really needs perhaps is data on common mistakes) More sophisticated systems now use shape and context as well.
The data used in taka is fairly old and crude (doesn't look like it's an active project). It's missing a lot of characters I know are correct (in my brief test) and are caught by Apples Chinese input.

No idea about potential connectivity to another app, the free search version doesn't allow it at any rate.

[Ivo]

I don't think jPod forums will get rid of either of us anytime soon. We're part of the furniture.

great then I am lucky for you two seem to know what you're talking about. Most other responses that I get (trying other fora as well) are not useful or outright stupid.
I gather that you work for JapanesePod101.

Haven't tried ShinKanji. I'll give it a look.

To check that out you will have to pay for it (6$). The lite version doesn't include the handwritten recognition software. I've emailed already the software developer - seems that it's some rather younger guy from France. I can't imagine that he programed the whole recognition input himself..that seems to me like a heck of a task for one person. My guess is that he might have used some other platform or somehow appropriated it for his own purposes...and this leads me to believe that there might be some alternatives for Japanese handwritten input for Ipods...but then again this is very speculative.

I haven't seen a system wide multi-radical input. It's implemented in Japanese dictionaries aimed at second language learners usually using data from the various Edict projects. radk and krad files usually.
Japanese people don't need this kind of support; they learnt all this in school so it hasn't made it into the Japanese system.

Yeah that makes sense, I guess that most educated Japanese don't really struggle with kanji pronunciation..hence the kana input is sufficient enough. Still I did read somewhere on the web that even common Japanese complain about the Chinese input system .

I think Apple's sandboxing of the system has meant that developers haven't come up with a Japanese handwriting input nor another system wide input system, because Apple won't let them implement it. I *think* the alternative keyboards I've seen are limited to their own apps.

I think this is one of the reasons why I am not a huge fan of Apple. Generally i do get the sense that they are very good at keeping control and stymieing independent software development.
What other alternative keyboards do you have in mind? I'd be really curious to know what's out there.

btw. if you do work for JapanesePOd101, my compliments to the whole company. I've created an account and checked the content - it seems really impressive - though I didn't spend enough time to check out all the in-s and outs.

[Belton]

I am lucky for you two seem to know what you're talking about. Most other responses that I get (trying other fora as well) are not useful or outright stupid.
I gather that you work for JapanesePod101.

No, I don't work for jPod. Just hang out here. I have a soft spot for jPod. I knew them before the Innovative Learning Global Empire! It's one of the more civilised forums. Whatever about knowing what we're talking about; most people here are passionate about Japanese and have a variety of opinions and advice, and usually play nice together.

To check that out you will have to pay for it (6$).

There is a free version of the search function. see below.

I think this is one of the reasons why I am not a huge fan of Apple. Generally i do get the sense that they are very good at keeping control and stymieing independent software development.
What other alternative keyboards do you have in mind? I'd be really curious to know what's out there.

Apple's sandboxing. meh. It's really just the iPhone. You can hack a Mac to your hearts content and live with the consequences and or benefits, developers are free to do what they want. You can do it on iPhone too but you need to jailbreak. I think it's all a desire to provide a consistent non-buggy, hard to take-over with mal-ware and viruses appliance, and to lock down content for the media companies that are providing it.
I doubt it'd be as generally popular if they just made the hardware and left it to everyone else to make and distribute the software. Linux distros are good but many people just don't want the complexity and are happy with the Windows and Office that came with their cheap PC. Not everyone is a nerd. There are always trade offs.
Maybe Android might go one better, maybe another company will come up with something and the competition will drive what Apple does. who knows.

The Keyboards I had in mind are these.
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/easy-mai ... 45664?mt=8
http://www.4us.jp/pce.html

I played with the free keyboard but haven't done enough writing to bother buying one.

Mainly just a better key arrangement.

[Ivo]

No, I don't work for jPod. Just hang out here. I have a soft spot for jPod. I knew them before the Innovative Learning Global Empire! It's one of the more civilised forums. Whatever about knowing what we're talking about; most people here are passionate about Japanese and have a variety of opinions and advice, and usually play nice together.

I agree, it is a good forum. i have also tried Jref etc. but this one seems to be more alive and also have people contributing who are more knowledgeable. I should probably not be asking here but would you know of any other comparative forum for Japanese enthusiasts? I sometimes go to Wordreference Forum...is good for translation help etc. but not for all the topics together.

Also, as I mentioned shinkanji in my previous quote, I got a responses from the programmer, might be of interest to you:


Hello Ivo,
let me try to answer your questions. Regarding the difference between the chinese input method and the Zinnia handwriting recognition which I offer. Zinnia is fairly accurate and definitely more than the included chinese input method + it has undo and redo capability, it shows more candidates and the area for drawing is bigger. However I have to say that it is not as good as the ones on pure japanese PDA.
The system itself could include all the kanji but for performance and size reason I have limited it to the JIS level 1 kanji (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0208 ... rtitioning) this means I have in the app 2965 kanji recognizable by handwriting recognition. I could add a more complete dictionary as a downloadable option if it is requested.
This system cannot really be used as a substitute for the default method as it is only available from within my application. You could as you mention it use it to enter a kanji then copy the kanji, switch to another application and paste it there but it would be a bit cumbersome.
As far as I know this is the only Japanese handwriting recognition system for the iPod Touch or iPhone but while I used to follow every new application I am not anymore as there are too many so there could be other.

So it seems this is not a perfect solution either.
I will really call Apple today and ask them about their plans for the future = i.e. whether they plan on introducing something specifically for Japanese language.

[Ivo]

Just to add one piece of information:
I've now talked to 3 people at Apple and no one could tell me whether they will do something about Japanese support in the future. The only person who seemed to have some clue - software development department - said they can't comment on future developments. So hoping for changes in Os 4.0 might be futile.

[Belton]

Just to add one piece of information:
I've now talked to 3 people at Apple and no one could tell me whether they will do something about Japanese support in the future. The only person who seemed to have some clue - software development department - said they can't comment on future developments. So hoping for changes in Os 4.0 might be futile.

It would have surprised me if Apple had said anything. They keep most things secret until they make an announcement at a press event. OS 4 has already been released to developers so there's not going to be many surprises when it goes public.

Since System 9 (I think), certainly OSX, Apple has always only released a single OS that works everywhere with no additions or language packs etc. On the hardware end I'm fairly sure everything had a universal dual voltage power supply too.

Essentially, as Apple seem to have ditched the idea of pens, I doubt we'll see Japanese handwriting recognition anytime soon.

Other forums... try http://forum.koohii.com/
I rarely go there as I'm not a fan of the Heisig method but I think it's fairly vibrant, and I recognise some of the names of users from elsewhere.

Smart.fm had good forums for a brief while but their direction in the past year has been a bit diffuse and they axed the forum.

These days I tend to read blogs and maybe comment now and then, rather than browse forums. It can all be a great timewaster though and I really ought to spend the time more productively...