Another translation request: shitagaru

[Taurus]

I've just come across the following sentence and I'm having trouble translating it:

最近、子供を医者にしたがる両親が多いそうです。

I really just don't know where to start, and I think it's the したがる (shitagaru) that's throwing me off. Is it some sort of informal contraction? Is it related to がっている？Or　がいる？

'These days, kids doctor-to [something] parents looks like lots of them' is the best I can do, after checking google and alc.co.jp.

I'm sure it's very simple, but then so am I.

[QuackingShoe]

がる on the end of an adjective basically means that someone is giving the appearance of that adjective. You have to use it because in Japanese it's weird (and rude) to just assume what other people are feeling/thinking. So, basically, it's just 'that thing you put on adjectives when talking about other people,' but it's important to remember what it actually means, because you can't, for instance, say, "If you want to..." with it, because you'd actually be asking "If you're giving the appearance of wanting to...," which doesn't make any sense.

this happens to be slapped onto したい, so the translation of the sentence is "Recently, it seems like a lot of parents (seem to) want to make their kids into doctors."

[Taurus]

Ah, okay. So that seems to be the same as がっている　(gatteiru), as in the following sentence:

私は山へ行きたいですが、妻は海へ行きたがっています。

Is that correct?

[QuackingShoe]

がっている is a conjugation of がる in the same way that 知っている is a conjugation of 知る

[Taurus]

Yep, that's what I meant - cheers for clarifying!

[Taurus]

I have another question about がる.

Twice in the past couple of days, I've come across the form 'がることはない' (garu koto ha nai), and I was wondering what it meant. In both cases, the 'garu' didn't seem to refer to the feelings of another person - though I could be wrong.

This is one of the sentences:

社長は厳しいけれども、気持ちは優しい人だから、怖がることはない。

(shachou ha kibishii keredomo, kimochi ha yasashii hito dakara, kowagaru koto ha nai)

I guess it means something like 'the boss is harsh, but he's a kind person so there's no need to be scared', but why is that garu there?

[QuackingShoe]

怖がる is a verb that means 'be afraid (of)'. See also: おそれる、おびえる

For comparison, 怖い事はない would mean more like "There's nothing scary" while 怖がる事はない means more like "There's nothing to be scared of (no reason to be scared)."

[Taurus]

Ah, okay - thank you.

The other sentence was:

会話の練習なのだから、間違えても恥ずかしがることはない。
(kaiwa no renshuu na no dakara, machigaette mo hazukashi garu koto ha nai.)

I guess hazukashigaru is to hazukashii as kowagaru is to kowai... (ie. a separate word)

And the na no dakara bit - the na no is for emphasis, right?

[QuackingShoe]

Yep, and yep.

[reverser]

I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents on this issue, having wondered about this extensively myself, and coming across this page.

Also having been a believer of the same principle that Quack stated (which I believe is perpetuated throughout generations of Japanese learners largely because "kami-sama" Jim Breen put it in his dictionary), I wanted to hopefully shed some light on this topic.

I strongly questioned these supposed "garu" verbs because they are seem to be screaming "Hey I'm just a modified 形容詞 following the rules that you've been taught in basic Japanese grammar" Alas, seeing them in dictionaries throws even the most perceptive of learners off.

Upon probing (7) Japanese coworkers and looking in a total of (6) J>J ONLY dictionaries (some electronic, some paper), I have come to the conclusion that this is one big Gaijin ruse.

There are no "garu" verbs in any J>J dictionary that I checked: 怖がる、強がる、恥ずかしがる were the test words.

Upon probing real Japanese people (i.e. people that have come over to work in my company that have spent their lives in Japan), these are not considered independent verbs, they are 形容詞 with garu appended on the end to give the definition "to behave as if one were";"to feel", as defined in WWWJDIC.

I hope this is useful to someone as these supposed "garu" verbs have permeated dictionaries and learners of Japanese minds for far too long...I am one of those people.

[occultnine]

Reverser, I am in total agreement with what you are saying. Actually it seemed so obvious to me that I never really even thought about it. However now that it has been brought up it leads me to think about an obvious question. Can these types of expressions be used in the first person i.e. 私は怖がっているetc. If they can not then it is all the more obvious that they are not merely "normal" verbs.

[WalterWills]

Is したがる the same as したい except it's used when the person who you're talking about ISN'T there?

[reverser]

occultnine: Great question. I'm not 100% sure, so won't make any conclusions, but will ask Japanese co-workers and post info.

WalterWills: It's not even necessarily that they're not there, it's simply when you are talking about a third person (or to someone unless you are asking about their desire). You can't make an assertion that they "for sure" are wanting to do it, so you are implying that they are showing signs of wanting to to do it, or they they are behaving as if they want to do it.

Examples:

私は食べたいです。
I want to eat (it).

あなたは食べたいですか？ (here it's OK because you are asking)
Do you want to eat (it)?

あなたは食べたがっています。(here because you're not asking you have have to use garu)
You (appear to / are showing signs of / are behaving as if) you to want to eat (it).

彼は食べたがっています。(here because you are talking about third person's apparent desire, you have to use garu)
He (appears to / is showing signs of / is behaving as if) he wants to want to eat it.

[Javizy]

WalterWills: It's not even necessarily that they're not there, it's simply when you are talking about a third person (or to someone unless you are asking about their desire). You can't make an assertion that they "for sure" are wanting to do it, so you are implying that they are showing signs of wanting to to do it, or they they are behaving as if they want to do it.

Examples:

あなたは食べたがっています。(here because you're not asking you have have to use garu)
You (appear to / are showing signs of / are behaving as if) you to want to eat (it).

Is that one definitely okay? My grammar references skip over second person examples. I would've thought something like 食べたいようだね would be more common.

I also realised I badly need to review ～たい. が can't be used if there is a lengthy phrase between the object and the verb, or in passive structures, or when を isn't used to mark a direct object as in 公園を歩きたい. I think I need to start hitting the books again...