Learning Kanji logical order.

[Dragonspork]

Im having a huge problem. I'm just finishing up Hiragana. I know to truly learn Japanese grammar, I have to get my Kanji learning going. But for Hiragana its in a logical order. Easier for my brain to proses. Two and a half weeks and I can read stuff pretty fast with it. With some beginner hiccups of course. Now when I look at Kanji I can not see a logical progression so I'm kinda stumped. Where do I start?

I think I have found my answer. But I could use some tips still.
Thank you

[Javizy]

Heisig's Remembering the Kanji is arranged very logically in a way that builds up to more complicated characters using simpler ones you have already learned. As the title suggests, it also has a great system to help you remember the characters. There's a thread explaining it here: http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=1958 along with a sample of the first hundred pages or so. Look around that forum for advice on using Anki/SRS as well, since that's how you should learn to read after finishing Heisig.

[anomalous58]

Yeah. It does seem logical to learn Kanji starting with the basic radicals and working your way up, but I don't feel this is the best way. I think the best way is to learn the most common kanji that you'll see everyday first and then build your way up. That way, you'll be exposed to them more and become faster at recognizing them.

There is a good book called Kanji Power that teaches the characters in the same order that the Japanese kids learn in school. It has a lot of examples, practice and is pretty detailed. You can also do what most people do, and study using the JLPT order.
http://www.jlptstudy.com/4/index.html

[Dragonspork]

Thank you for the advice. I just looked at Kanji Power today. Thought it looked good. But haven't bought it yet. JLPT sounds like a good idea. I mean to really test myself. Why not use the proper test. But I really like the whole "Learning the most used." Idea. Is there a list. Or is that in Kanji Power?

[anomalous58]

Kanji Power and the JLPT both fall under that category as do textbooks like, Genki, Yokoso, Nakama, and Minna no Nihongo.
Also, if you're having trouble becoming fluent with Katakana (like I did) set your internet browser and computer to Japanese. A lot of your computer's options will be written in katakana so you'll be exposed and forced to start reading the katakana, and you'll be fluent in no time. If that's too much of a nuisance just change certain programs to Japanese.

[Dragonspork]

Man that is a good idea. Actually I'm in Japanese locale on here. So that would be an easy task.

[anomalous58]

ahh good. Loving the 24 hour clock?
If I may ask, what is your main method of study?

[Dragonspork]

So far I am almost complete with Hiragana.
The method so far is. Print out worksheet. Practice writing and saying the sounds. Then flashcard myself to death. Ill start with what i have learned that day. Then add all the past Hiragana. If there is something I don't remember. I look it up right away to prevent the wrong answer from forming in my head. So far in one and a half weeks. I have been able to retain and use Hiragana on simple words. Thats about it so far. I want to start learning Kanji to start reading words. Build my vocab. So forth and so on. I know there is more to it. But baby steps seems to be best. Im hoping to be able to have simple conversations by September. October I'm planning on a trip to japan. so you know.... kinda pressed for time. =-)

[Belton]

There are many ways of ordering kanji.

here's a cross reference of several books.
http://www.joyo96.org/cgi-bin/xref.pl

The native ordering is usually by onyomi in hiragana order, but I very much doubt anyone could order all the Jyouyou Kanji in the same way you could recite the alphabet.
When learning, the Jyouyou are broken down into grades. The grades roughly introduce kanji in order of simplicity, usefulness, and frequency. But it's geared towards Japanese school children not foreign learners.
The grade school books by Shimomura Noboru
http://www.n-shimo.com/index.html
are worth looking at if you can cope with *all Japanese*.
It is one of the few books (apart from Heisig) I've seen that gives a methodology to learning to write individual characters (by breaking them down into about 36 basic components and 24 common radicals)
If you search for 下村昇 on Amazon.jp you can look at previews of his books.

The 1006 Gakushuu Kanji are probably a better intermediate goal for second language learners. Apparently studies have shown it will allow you to read 90% of material you are likely to meet in Japan. There are definitely diminishing returns when learning kanji. (which is not to say that the full Jyouyou set and beyond aren't valid goals)

For an order that uses frequency have a look at Kanji Odyssey
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/e-2001kanji.html

The Kanji Book series by Chieko Kano gives a balanced introduction to all aspects of kanji. Its method for individual characters isn't explicit but there is an underlying logic to how the characters are introduced.

In most systems readings are learnt by putting kanji to vocabulary you already have, or by learning example vocabulary to cover the readings.

A specific kanji test worth looking at is the kanken, although it's hard to find a test centre outside Japan. The learning materials are useful though.
http://www.kanken.or.jp/

Kakitorikun on the DS uses the grade school order and gives some feedback on your writing. I recommend the first version over the second (kanken) version.
http://100mas.jp/kakitorikun/

If you do use Heisig to learn writing characters and the English keywords, I think it's worth following the grade order to then learn the readings of the characters. I see a number of people doing this using Kanji Odyssey order on smart.fm

[Javizy]

The 1006 Gakushuu Kanji are probably a better intermediate goal for second language learners. Apparently studies have shown it will allow you to read 90% of material you are likely to meet in Japan. There are definitely diminishing returns when learning kanji. (which is not to say that the full Jyouyou set and beyond aren't valid goals)

What do you think of these studies? I have a hard enough time with a little more than the jouyou at times. Everything on food packaging seems to mercilessly use non-jouyou characters, for instance. If it means 90% of a piece of text, that could still mean getting stuck on a good number of words per page, especially if the half of a compound you could read is counted in that 90%.

If you do use Heisig to learn writing characters and the English keywords, I think it's worth following the grade order to then learn the readings of the characters. I see a number of people doing this using Kanji Odyssey order on smart.fm

I only wish I'd had the opportunity to do this. You could literally give yourself a great literacy base in less than a year. It's great because it has audio as well, so you could work on your accent at the same time. If you followed up by SRSing 6-10k words the following year, you'd pretty much be set.

I'm not sure how textbooks teach you to read, but I'd definitely take the idea of learning a characters' readings with a pinch of salt. You never really stop learning to read as long as you're learning new vocabulary. A few examples that troubled me in the past week are 体裁, 面目, and 目安, for example.

I definitely encourage Dragonspork to weigh up his options before making the plunge. You really need to think about kanji in the long-term, because it is a long-term commitment, and I seriously doubt that a single textbook is going to give you everything you need to be successful, although Heisig is definitely a good start.

[Dragonspork]

I knew that I might have to go to many sources for Kanji. You should see my tabs in firefox, just for Hilagana, language exchange, flashcards, worksheets, etc . This gives me good foundation materials to start with. I will look at each and see what will work for me. Learning without a class is hard. But I have learned more because of it. At least I think. I have a knack for remembering Hiragana. But I also know this next step is much more involved and complicated. SO any more advice I will take but in a couple of days my first step will be take. =-)

[Belton]

What do you think of these studies? I have a hard enough time with a little more than the jouyou at times. Everything on food packaging seems to mercilessly use non-jouyou characters, for instance.

You're also not going to be able to order sushi by the logic you suggest. Most of the names of fish aren't included in the Jyouyou set.... But then I just pick up the interesting looking fish off the conveyor belt or let the shop owner suggest what's good. There are ways to cope with a foreign country. Food packaging text isn't that big a deal really.

My understanding is 90% of everyday texts rather than 90% of characters in everyday texts.
Newspapers, pamphlets etc might be better examples than food labels which even in English require a more specialist vocabulary.
I also believe the studies were of native Japanese literacy. But I have a hard time tracking down any primary references, hence the use of "apparently" (citations are needed!).
It comes down to what someone wants to or needs to read in Japanese. You obviously have higher requirements and demand high standards of yourself. Yet at the other extreme, there are people who live successfully in Japan while being functionally illiterate. You may also be surprised by what Japanese themselves can read and write and the types of mistakes they make.

I merely suggest it as an *intermediate* goal for 2nd language learners, and developing strategies for the 10% of usage that you don't know, it is possible to fill in blanks from context or learn on a need-to-know basis.
Looking at chunks of 200 characters in a grouping of 1006 seems more manageable, and less off-putting than looking at a group of 2000 especially when you haven't vocabulary to put to a lot of them. When the first 1000 account for 90% of usage with the next 1000 only adding 10% of usage and presumably requiring similar efforts to learn - diminishing returns. Necessary if you want to operate at undergraduate level, but maybe not the best use of effort for everyone. There's no compelling reason why the gakushuu (or JLPT2 or Kanken grade 5) can't be a stepping stone to wider learning, jyouyou (JLPT 1 or Kanken grade 2) and beyond but also give you a good general usage for now.

I'm not sure how textbooks teach you to read

Usually by giving you graded texts to allow you to work at your level and exercises to test and reenforce your comprehension and develop your vocabulary skills.

[Dragonspork]

The plan was "Learn Kanji, then use it to lean grammar from another website." But how important would it be to add conversational Japanese to it? Because I've noticed an unhealthy trend of. "If you want to say this english sentence. Use this japanese phrase." To me that isn't teaching somebody to be a japanese speaker. That is making them a parrot. So the learning of kanji to then learn grammar seems to be a better option. I could be wrong though. What are your thoughts?

[Javizy]

You don't really "need" kanji until Level 1, where you'll be hard pressed to find anything without it. Of course, I can't recommend kanji enough, but you can learn grammar and vocabulary with just kana. If you want to make the most out of your trip, then speaking and listening are going to be more important than reading and writing, so you might want to prioritise.

If you still have an interest in pursuing the language when you get back, then you can try something like Heisig with Kanji Odyssey, and still become proficient with the writing system relatively quickly. It's taken me three years to get to a level where I can read fairly comfortably as far as my vocabulary allows. I'm a hopeless slacker, and my study methods were terrible until a few months ago, so it's certainly feasible to surpass my level in half the time with a bit of structure and consistency. When I read about other people's levels on that forum I mentioned, it's quite frustrating that I'm so behind...

[Belton]

The plan was "Learn Kanji, then use it to lean grammar from another website." But how important would it be to add conversational Japanese to it? Because I've noticed an unhealthy trend of. "If you want to say this english sentence. Use this japanese phrase." To me that isn't teaching somebody to be a japanese speaker. That is making them a parrot. So the learning of kanji to then learn grammar seems to be a better option. I could be wrong though. What are your thoughts?

If I understand your thinking, I don't think it's possible. Even at a simplified child's level the Japanese needed for a comprehensive explanation would be far in excess of the grammar you are learning.
I feel you'd be better off with English explanations of Japanese grammar. The gold standard is the three volume Dictionary of Japanese Grammar by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui from Japan Times. They're expensive but excellent books.

Phrases or sentences are better than individual vocabulary usually. It's easier and better to remember linked words.
But rather than just phrases, patterns are most useful when learning grammar. And then learning to adapt a pattern to your own uses by slotting in the vocabulary you know.

With limited time, and in anticipation of a trip to Japan, I'd concentrate on Katakana and speaking Tourist needs. Work your way through a book like Japanese for Busy People volume 1 and the basic podcasts here.
Unfortunately listening is going to be very difficult when faced with native speeds and vocabulary, you'll end up smiling and banking on goodwill a lot. The culture shock of being illiterate is interesting to say the least, but oddly it's easy enough to cope with.