In Need of Advice

[jazzbeans]

I've been studying Japanese since October 2008, but due to other studies, I wasn't really able to study intensely or anything. Only NOW do I feel I have the time to study everyday. However...

Although I feel that I am still learning quite a bit everyday, I just realised I am practically still at square one. For example, I decided to record myself speaking Japanese again (it's been about a year since I last did that) yesterday and my gosh, I was horrified. Even I could hear several intonation problems, etc, and I'm only at a beginner level!

It's not necessary to read on, as I'm rambling after this. So I'll set my question here:
How do you widen your vocabulary and familiarity with grammar?

I don't know if it's normal but, I have a dictionary at my side at all times 'cause I can't really say much without them. Lemme try now (dictionary-less!):

今日は、日本語の勉強について心配です。楽しいですが、最近それは憂鬱になります。いつか私の発音とイントネーションは日本人のように聞こえるといいですが、知りません。さぁどうかな？良くするかもしれませんけど、多くトピックで色々のものをどう言うのか分かりません。

Even then, I'm most probably recycling sentences I've already said this week. I'm trying to broaden what I can speak about by speaking about a variety of things more, but I'm just not sure as to the best route to go about this. I want to, as I cannot yet have a live conversation with someone because:

1. I get too nervous
2. There are so many words I don't recognise.

I mean, I can say mictronal music, absurdity, archipelago and all these other words you won't really use a lot in Japanese. Yet, common words such as, I dunno, kitchen, sun, big brother, etc, I am just not as familiar with. Why? I've no idea. Okay, I know the last two but I don't even think I know how you say any room in the house yet.. I did learn it, it just didn't stick.

I'm thinking of writing 'essays' on these topics, like you do at school. I'm hoping this will help 'cause it seems to be why I learn the words I do know.

My MSN doesn't even let me type in Japanese (I use aMSN), so I use that as an excuse not to speak to people live like that, even though I have mIRC and whatnot. But really it's because I am ever so slow at deciphering their text and then writing what I want to say. People get impatient! Ha ha. I do want to advance to such a level though, I just dunno whether I should push into it more or leave it until I'm more comfortable/advanced with my studies.

Ho-hum, ho-hum. Thank you for reading though! Any advice would be useful, if anyone has any.

[Belton]

It's an interesting question.

You need to think about how you want / need to use Japanese in the short / medium term. Will you be a tourist? living in Japan? talking with friends? Then start thinking about the sort of vocabulary and grammar you need to talk in those situations. Use a flashcard system to memorise grouped vocabulary. It's better to learn a single general word to begin with rather than get bogged down with a lot of words that mean the same thing. Make up dialogues. Talk to yourself. Have a running narrative of your daily actions.

Recycling sentences is pretty much how most conversation works. You use phrases / constructions /words you've used before; that you've practised before and that you're comfortable with.

Writing and reading are a good way to develop vocabulary.
Write a diary in Japanese, just for yourself perhaps.
Maybe you could blog in Japanese.
http://lang-8.com/ is a site where you can get your writing corrected by other members.

Try to talk to Japanese people if you can, using Skype perhaps. Eventually that is the test of ability and the whole point of learning a language; can you communicate successfully?
Also you have to do it in freefall as it were. You haven't the time to look up dictionaries, you have to use the language you remember to communicate what you want. You have to develop strategies to help you do this.
The hardest but best classes I've had were ones when I had to talk one to one with the teacher for an hour in Japanese. You need a good speaking partner though. Ideally a native Japanese who can lower their speech to your level and can rephrase things to help you. BUT try to avoid English at all costs. You don't have to be perfect, you have to be understood. You can't let your imperfections and mistakes hold you back.


maybe what I've written before might also help
http://www.shiawase.co.uk/2008/04/12/ho ... ocabulary/

[ggenglish]

jazz, take my advice with a grain of salt as your Japanese is far more advanced than me even though it looks like we started at pretty much exactly the same time. grrrr. However, I also spent time years ago attempting to learning Italian so I'm no stranger to language learning in general.

This is the progression I used before and am trying to use again:
1. Pen Pal Emailing - Emailing gives you plenty of time look up words. I take an hour to read an email and a day to write one generally. haha.
2. Instant Messenger - Once your confidence is up you switch to messenger.
3. Travel to Country - If you are in North America, anyone you meet local to you is going to know English better than you'll know their language imo. If you are elsewhere you might be in luck. I'm a shy person so the only way I was able to force my speak was to try and flip the table. Expensive, I know.

For me 'writing essays' wouldn't work. I'm not that self disciplined enough. I need the pressure situation of knowing someone is waiting on an email for me, and if I don't email them they probably won't email me back.

Forgive my rudeness but your aMSN excuse is terrible . I use miranda which gives me msn, icq, gtalk, skype and irc all in one. You know this is an easy hurdle to jump.

VOIP has come a long way since 2s delays when I was learning italian so not sure how it will factor into my personal progression this time but to me I really feel like I'd need to be face to face with the person. I guess that's just a excuse though.

In terms of impatience, you may be the strongly considerate type and worry to much that the other party is frustrated when they are not. However, even if this is the case one of the most important things is to find good language exchange partners that make you feel comfortable.

best of luck, actually I never thought of joining an IRC channel and listening(reading) to other people talk in real time. Thanks for the indirect suggestion.

[jazzbeans]

Belton >> That's true (finding out why you are studying a language). Actually, at first it was more of a "I wanna understand at least one other language!" thing and was inspired to do so after watching a Swedish film - ha ha, I won't bother to elaborate.

However, much to my surprise, I started to really enjoy studying Japanese. I didn't think I would like learning a language so much but I do! And now I like the sounds of being a translator for either films or law. I saw a University that combines Japanese with Law (two of my favourite subjects... the joy in my heart when I saw that combo was immense). But I didn't apply and am wondering whether I should.. =\ I lack faith in myself, I may just keep Japanese as a hobby 'cause I enjoy it. Not for any purpose at the moment then, I suppose. Just for fun. Wow, that sounds lame...

I kept a Japanese blog for about four months or so. It was awesome, the blog site was closing down though, so I left. However, it's now up until late-March I heard. It's a shame 'cause it was the best blog site I have ever been on in my life. 'Tis called CURURU. I now use Lang-8, actually. =)

I have a big thing about making mistakes. I hate them, I hate to make mistakes and be bad at something (it's embarrassing and saddens me), even being on Lang-8, I feel sad to get corrected even though I'm very glad that they took the time to help me like that. In high school, I'd rather knowingly give an incorrect answer than risk my real answer being wrong - a habit I've mostly broken now. But you're totally right, I should let that hold me back and so long as people understand me, it'll do and I'll get better.

I really, really want a Japanese tutor like that! But, for starters, I lack money and for.. seconders?.. the only tutor in my city is on maternity leave, ha ha. My mother's Japanese friend offered to help me but, she had to go back to Japan (although she sent me a batch of gifts from there, [sobs] she's so lovely.. I didn't even know her!). I did, however, find out that there's a Japanese club here. I am too shy to go though, I'm thinking of making my friend come with me who's also studying it.

I know, I'm full of excuses. I'll try to make more of an effort with putting myself out there though. Now I've got tons more time to focus on Japanese, I've been doing so much more, I only watch Japanese media now, for example, and am thinking of finding a Japanese forum to sign up to too, as I find that they communciate a lot differently on places like that compared to in e-mails, etc. =)

ggenglish >> Ha ha, I am sure you'd have a much more easier time speaking to someone in Japanese than I would. As I said, I'm not very good when it comes to common talk; despite having penpals, MSN pals, having had a blog, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm a terrible penpal and this is a warning I give to all my penpals. I will sometimes leave my e-mail for ages~ ha ha. I am not good at keeping up with these things, I only realised yesterday evening that I in fact didn't reply to my penpal who wrote to be a bit before Christmas. =\ I was so sure I did but [sigh].. so now I have to apologise! There was me, waiting for HIM to get back to me, whilst he's waiting for me too! -_-

Yeah, I've yet to travel to Japan yet! No means to do so right now, but I'm dying to go. I was thinking of joining a summer immersion class there. =) Even though I am too shy as hell and I know I'd hate it 'cause I'd be so embarassed, I'm sure. Ha ha, for the greater good though, right? !

I did join an IRC chat group ages ago and spoke to them in Japanese (they were not impatient whatosever, they were all lovely too!), it was really good and I do recommend it.=D I sometimes watch Japanese chat groups, the amount of slang though. Well, I presume it's slang 'cause I've no idea what they're going on about sometimes!

Thanks again for your advice! =D I think I will push myself more to get out there. I was wondering whether I should wait until I became better but, after what you said, I think it'll probably help me more to just get sink myself into MSNing people, etc.


Perhaps either of you could offer me some more advice on something...
I actually, really, really enjoy translating sentences. I translate both ways, just for fun. For example, in one of my Lang-8 entries I put:

私の彼氏は「He might not yet understand that he can submit existing work」と言いました。そして私は「これは日本語で何と言うのでしょうか？」と思いましたが、それはむずかしすぎました。「まだ彼は既存の作品を提出することが出来ることを理解できないかもしれません」は私の最良の推測でした。(My boyfriend said "[blah]", so then I thought "How do you say that in Japanese?" but, it was too hard. "[blah in Japanese]" was my best guess).

And that's generally how I work. I feel that doing this makes me learn a lot of vocab. because I look up so many words and sentences, trying to find the best sentence I can that fits. Although a fellow Japanese learner hates that I do this, ha ha. I don't do it often though, but my thinking was that I should thus do it more!

So, I was planning on getting some books written in Japanese. I'm just not sure what kind 'cause I'm not very good at kanji yet, so I need furigana or something written with more basic kanji symbols. Are there any books you'd recommend if have any at all?

[Belton]

For what it's worth I started Japanese on a whim as well. Five years later it's one of the best things I've done, I've travelled in Japan, met my wife, I have a great Japanese family and friends. So you never know where it might lead you, I didn't even intend to travel to Japan when I started. It was just a hobby, still is to a great extent. But if you can in life it's great to make your living while doing something you enjoy.

I wasn't so much asking why are you learning Japanese but rather trying to get you to concentrate on a small manageable and relevant topic rather than the overly large "I want to be fluent in Japanese" etc.

Mistakes.
I understand your feelings. but *everyone* makes mistakes. Learning is about making mistakes and learning from them in a safe environment. Good teachers will help you correct them, good classmates will be supportive.. No-one learns any skill without making mistakes, correcting them and practising.
The Japanese friends I have have all gone though a similar situation in English so they are very supportive and understanding of my mistakes in Japanese. (They only laugh when I unwittingly come out with howlers.)

Shyness I can understand too. But you can re-invent yourself, your Japanese persona can be more outgoing. Speaking a new language can be a bit like acting.
I must say your self-imposed limitations of perfection and shyness are preventing you from doing fun and exciting stuff that you want to do (applying for university or travelling to Japan). Try to stretch yourself a bit and you'll find it *does* get easier -- don't end up a hikkikomori!

Translating.
Do what works for you.
I'd try to limit the English to words rather than phrases.
Rather than mix it up, maybe try two versions instead. One in English. One in Japanese. That way English speakers can see what you are trying to say and help you with the Japanese.
Before you resort to a dictionary led translation see how far you can get on your own.
It's hard but you might have to use simpler ideas while you're learning. A teacher of mine gave me the good advice to simplify my more complex English idea into several simple Japanese sentences, rather than get mixed up trying to construct complex translated Japanese sentences.
You may also need to use a flashcard system to memorise the new words you find when writing. Otherwise you'll probably quickly forget them (happens to me all the time).

Books.
Not incredibly exciting but these well produced graded readers are good and satisfying to read without dictionaries.
http://www.nihongo-ask.jp/tadoku/index.html
よつばと！ is my favourite comic. Well drawn, funny, gentle, kanji have furigana.
http://www.yotuba.com/yotu_comics.html

[jazzbeans]

Yeah, I don't know what topics I should focus on or anything. I mean, I don't know various words 'cause I seldom use them. Whereas, things like microtonal music I speak about a lot more.

Hmm.. interesting idea about re-inventing myself. "... don't end up a hikkikomori!", ha ha! I probably bloody am already a Hikkikomori these days! Sad fact, but I'll start trying harder to overcome my shyness, etc. Yeah~ I'll try and join a class as soon as I can too.

I like that idea of reducing what I want to say to simple Japanese sentences and trying to work it out with my current knowledge before resorting to my dictionary straight away. I actually tried it out and was kind of surprised as to what stuff I remembered, so it's a good exercise I never thought of before!

Oh- and by the way, thank you very much for the link to your website! I had a look at it, although I already enjoy Chika-san's stuff. =) And thanks for the book recommendations, x.