JLPT - Kanji + Hira/Kata

[maplewalnut]

Hello everyone,

私わテりいです。I'm currently studying Japanese in the beginner section of this site in hopes of having the ability to write the JLPT L4 test next year in Toronto. That being said, I've hit somewhat of a wall right now and I'm hoping that a someone could give me some pointers to direct me in the right way so I don't end up giving in to learning Japanese half-heatedly. I enjoy the structure that's given on this site and this is the main reason why I've subscribed.

Albeit having other resources is great, I find myself really only using this site as well as smart.fm for Hiragana/Katakana practice and the Yamasa Online Kanji Dictionary to show the strokes for some complex Kanji. This brings me to first my question, to my knowledge and please correct me if I'm wrong, there are 80 Kanji characters for the first JLPT test--Are all 80 Kanji being taught in the beginner section in the lessons? Or is this something I need to "go out of my way" so to speak to learn them? The reason I'm asking this is because I'm currently memorizing Hiragana with smart.fm. That being said, with the 30 Hiragana I regurgitate everyday I find myself doing the lessons here a bit harder as my brain has hit a threshold with how much I can memorize, especially with the new Kanji introduced every lesson. I've brought myself down to two lessons a day...I know it sounds pretty low but after learning Hiragana it's extremely difficult to stay focused and learn new Kanji that I'm unsure if I actually need to know it right now. Below are the questions I'm concerned about and hopefully someone will be able to answer them so I can happily continue learning Japanese and get back on track.

Is it better to learn all the Hiragana prior to doing these lessons?

Are all 80 Kanji being taught in the beginner section in the lessons? Or is this something I need to "go out of my way" so to speak to learn them?

Follow up question to the one above:
Should I be learning all the Kanji in each lesson (which I've been doing so far) and worry about JLPT Kanji afterwards?

As you can see, I'm really confused as to what to focus on because I'm a big fan working smart, not hard. I would like to learn Japanese as efficiently as possible without living in Japan or paying for a tutor/class and so far, Rosetta Stone V3 hasn't given me the satisfaction I need to continue using the program and this site has been a "blessing" so to speak and has given me the structure I need to learn Japanese properly. I'm just mainly concerned about what else there is on this site and how to incorporate it into the lessons.

Thank you for any ideas/suggestions on how to continue learning with this site.

よろしくおねがいします。

[Belton]

Hiragana is very useful, but isn't a requirement to get the most out of the beginner lessons. I see no reason why you can't do both at once. Don't worry you'll soon get the hang of kana.

I'm not sure which beginner lessons you're listening to, but if they haven't changed from the original series through S5....
I hate to say it but the kanji closeup isn't very well thought out by any standard as to what kanji are learnt and what order or groupings they are learnt in. It's pretty random, just showing you kanji for some words in the lesson. They certainly aren't limited to the JLPT4 kanji. of which there are 103 (104?) now, not 80.
The good news is the JLPT4 kanji are all fairly simple kanji. But I think you'll have to look elsewhere to learn them. smart.fm may well have a list you can use.

(Someone's going to come along soon and tell you about Heisig.(or search the threads here) Give it a go, but RTK1 isn't really going to give you all the kanji info you need for JLPT4 either. That said it may well give you something more valuable if you find the technique works for you)

To be honest at this stage I'd ignore the kanji closeup completely. Teaching the writing system isn't JapanesePods strong point (IMO). Concentrate on the audio and grammar and vocabulary here.
Either learn JLPT4 kanji, or Grade1 kanji or give Heisig a go instead. When you have a better grounding in kanji the kanji closeup pdfs might make a bit more sense.

[maplewalnut]

That was a fantastic post, Belton-san. Thank you for giving me a push in the right direction, I now see clearly what you mean about JPOD101's strong points. I guess I had a feeling about what you said, but didn't have an understanding of it to put into words :p

ありがとう。

[untmdsprt]

Do a search for JLPT level 4 kanji. You'll find some good sites that focus on the104 kanji needed for the test.

I suggest learning words first before trying to learn their kanji. Having a large vocabulary is much better.

[Javizy]

Do a search for JLPT level 4 kanji. You'll find some good sites that focus on the104 kanji needed for the test.

I suggest learning words first before trying to learn their kanji. Having a large vocabulary is much better.

The catch-22 there is that knowing kanji helps a whole lot with remembering vocab, and naturally you need to know them to be able to read/look up words that you see. Personally, I'd give priority to kanji over JLPT4/3. I think the grammar and vocabulary structure is quite good, but when it comes to kanji, I think you should do whatever will be most beneficial in the long run. After all, it's all about attaining fluency with the language overall, not passing some tests that suggest you know a small fraction of it fairly well. It takes a very long time to reach JLPT1, and if you stick to the kanji structure, you'll be able to speak semi-fluently before you can even recognise all the daily use characters. That's not to say you can't take the tests while studying kanji with your own method.

[maplewalnut]

Well it seems it all depends on how I want to "live" my Japanese "life". If I stick with Hira and Kata then I'm pretty much reading children's books until I'm able to advance myself by learning Kanji afterwards--which may take several years. Whereas if I continue learning Kanji along with my studies I will be able to read at a higher level than a child in the same amount of time as above, but not have the largest vocabulary.

Javizy-san, would you recommend memorizing the Kanji to know it like the back of your hand or to familiarize myself with it, and in the long-run have it embedded?

ありがとう for all your replies.

[untmdsprt]

Here's a thought: where exactly are you in the world? Are you in Japan? Do you need to speak with these people on a daily basis? Are you in Tokyo? If so then you are guaranteed you'll find someone who can speak English. Are you in a more rural area, then you need to brush up on your Japanese speaking. If you're elsewhere in the world where there's not a soul around who can speak Japanese, then I suggest you concentrate on reading and writing.

Unfortunately, I live near Tokyo so I'm constantly finding English speakers. So, I fill my time listening to the podcasts for vocabulary building, and my textbooks for the reading/writing. I'm at a point where I'll have a mixed conversation of both English and Japanese with whomever I'm talking with. I'll purposely use the Japanese word instead of the English so I can ingrain it into my head.

And yes it does determine how you want to live your Japanese life.

[maplewalnut]

I'm currently in an area where there is not a soul around to speak Japanese...maybe where I used to live I would get a better chance as it was mostly cantonese and japanese in the area. Now I'm basically questioning on whether its necessary to continue learning Japanese at the rate I am, due to me not using it as often as I would like. I'm trying to learn all aspects of the language because this is a personal goal an aspiration if you will--less of a practical reason to learn Japanese aside from reading websites, watching Japanese TV and putting it on my resume in hopes for a better job possibly even in Japan.

My goal as of now is to read, write and speak/understand verbal communication in Japanese. That being said, it upsets me slightly that there is so much English being spoken in Tokyo. As much as it isn't a surprise that English has been and will continue being taught everywhere, it makes it less of an importance to understand Japanese (or any other language for that matter) when one may already know a language that is being taught all over the world as it is. I always have loved Japanese culture and the language, but does one need to immerse themselves in it, to understand it? At this point, I thought I did...maybe I don't.

Thanks for the eye opener utmdsprt

[untmdsprt]

I guess we can feel each other's pain. From my experience, you need to read and write Japanese for forms, etc. to fill out or read. Need to speak Japanese for any phone conversation, but when you're out and about, English is fine. Go figure.

One of my students wrote for his homework that he can't speak English, he doesn't understand it, and can't understand why people need to speak it in Japan. I wrote on his paper that you don't need it in Japan, but you need it outside of Japan. I had a teacher translate it into Japanese. I wonder what he thought of that?

[Javizy]

Well it seems it all depends on how I want to "live" my Japanese "life". If I stick with Hira and Kata then I'm pretty much reading children's books until I'm able to advance myself by learning Kanji afterwards--which may take several years. Whereas if I continue learning Kanji along with my studies I will be able to read at a higher level than a child in the same amount of time as above, but not have the largest vocabulary.

Javizy-san, would you recommend memorizing the Kanji to know it like the back of your hand or to familiarize myself with it, and in the long-run have it embedded?

ありがとう for all your replies.

If you get the memorisation of kanji out of the way ASAP, then you can learn how to read them at the same time as learning new words using flashcards. It's a really powerful way to connect the two, and if you do, say, 50 flashcards a day, you could be reading books a lot quicker than you think. For example, with 50 cards a day, you could master 10,000 words in a little over a year.

Since you're learning vocabulary at the same time as kanji, it doesn't have any slowdown effect on your studies at all, but rather the kanji make it a lot easier to remember the words. You'll also be able to interpret a lot of the new words you encounter, since most are constructed from kanji based on their meanings.

Some people try to learn a list of readings for a character outside of any context, which makes it practically impossible for your memory to form any sort of meaningful link, and ends up being painfully slow and frustrating. This is probably what you imagine the process to be like.

As for speaking, you can practice that on Skype. Start speaking as soon as you feel confident enough to make some sentences on-the-fly, and try to find a friend with a similar level of English. It can be very frustrating speaking to somebody with poor speaking skills, since they'll constantly ask you to repeat or define words, and be very slow and hard to understand. If you can get to a half decent level of fluency, then your Japanese won't be a burden to your friends. Imagine being out at a bar and your friend keeps asking you what you said every other line.

[maplewalnut]

edit: Before you read this, I just read a post about Kanji flashcards that you replied to in January. http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=3834

Thanks for your help

[Phro]

Have you heard of Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/download/)? It's a really well made flashcard program that I use for memorizing kanji and vocabulary. I think it would work well for hiragana and katakana as well. You can enter words/characters by yourself, but there are some pre-made "decks" on-line as well. JUST DON'T GIVE UP! Japanese is one of the most difficult languages for English speakers to learn--but it's also the most fun. (In my opinion.)

Someone mentioned doing 50 flashcards a day...and I think that's great for higher levels, like after you've been studying for 3 or 4 years or more. However when you're just starting out, I would say stick with 5 or 10 a day, at most. And be sure to review often! You'll get one card very easily one day, think you've mastered it and a week later scratch your head as to why you can't remember the damn thing. (This is why I use Anki, it has built in review. If you use it everyday, it can be very helpful.)

Finally, I, personally, think you NEED to learn hiragana and katakana first. Probably it's partly because that's how I was taught. :/ However, I think learning hiragana with a) help you with pronunciation--unlike English, there aren't any weird pronunciation, it's the same every time and b) it make dictionaries so much easier! Especially when you get away from beginner dictionaries and into more advanced dictionaries.

(Okay, the first paragraph of this post sounds like an advertisement, doesn't it? That is totally NOT the point at all...it's a free program! Still...sorry about that...)

[KabutoTX]

I just signed up to JapanesePod101. I have been using smart.fm for vocabulary and have used a few Kanji sites on the web and an app on my iPhone. I won't be taking JLPT4 but I am using it as a guide to study. JapanesePod Beginner section has come in great for grammar and reinforcing smart.fm. I actually had to look up "ja nakute" in a grammer book the other day and the next day ran into "kute" in one of the beginner lesson notes here. One thing I have found with smart.fm for vocabulary is that I run it in straight Kana mode. A lot of words there I might already know the Kanji and can guess the word meaning just by seeing the Kanji. It is harder to recall the translation without the Kanji and I retain the word better without seeing the Kanji. Ex. ireru. If I see the Kanji I know it immediately but straight Kana I have to think what the words means more.

For the JLPT you just need the 104 Kanji. Other Kanji in the test will have furigana.