1kyuu / 2kyuu

[AcidSky]

Hi,
as quite a few people here, I am taking the JLPT Tests every year and - failing 2kyuu last Decembre - have one specific weakness. Thanks to JPod it is not listening (Thanks guys!).

It's reading.

And I have been working hard on it, however, my major problem is lack of "strategy" (thin ice here...). I often misinterpret (guess...) texts I am reading as I get confused with multiple negations, implication etc.

So, although this is probably a bit out of scope of Listening only classes, a smaller series (4-5 lessons) on how to approach reading would be darn helpful. Things like what to look out for, how to interpret certain expression, how to deal with those double negations etc. might be a start. How do you think?

Also to other readers of the forum: how do you learn reading? I have been at it about 10 minutes a day with 2kyuu materials and of course I am improving quickly, however, I need a bit more structure in order to improve further. Teaching myeslf does only get me so far.

Thanks!

[Javizy]

It's hard to imagine how a series of lessons on the general topic of "reading" could deal with your problems. The difference between written and spoken language is largely a stylistic one (assuming kanji doesn't pose a problem). It's pretty hard to quantify this in and of itself without looking more closely at the individual structures.

You might find it more productive to address the sentences you're struggling with directly. What seems like a confusing series of words you know, but can't make sense of, may often turn out to be some sort of idiomatic structure, which is easy to understand once you learn it.

A couple of double negations that come to mind are 読めないことはない 'it's not that I can't read' and 読めないのではないでしょうか 'I believe he won't be able to read it (is it not that he won't be able to read it?)'. Maybe if you post some examples of problem areas, somebody can try to help you.

As for learning to read, when kanji is no longer a problem, then it's just a case of acquiring the overall language, like with listening, speaking, and writing. Continue priming your grammar and vocabulary, and expose yourself to the language as much as possible. Get yourself a book or some manga that you find interesting, that you can read almost or completely for entertainment. You could also look into some resources geared directly towards JLPT2 reading comprehension, if you haven't already.

[Psy]

Having been practicing a bit with JLPT materials lately, I can relate to the challenges you're facing. What I've found to be a decent strategy is to first blaze through the grammar questions (try for 15 minutes-- don't fret over any of them until after you've gone ahead and answered the reading questions, which are worth considerably more towards your final score). When you're done, you should still have 50~55 minutes to take on the reading section. Here, since you're taking a test and not a lit class, read the answers first to get an idea of what points you should be focusing on, then read through the passage quickly but calmly. For the long section, you won't have time to read it twice with any degree of concentration, so try your best to get it on the first pass. If you find yourself overwhelmed, spend a few seconds to breathe, relax, and try again. If it is clear you aren't getting anywhere with one passage, move onto the next-- the reading questions are worth a lot, so you don't want to leave anything blank.

For materials, try reading articles on Wikipedia-- they seem to share that same bone-dry, painfully boring technical style that the test writers just love to death. They're also loaded with obscure kanji. Set a timer for yourself and see how far you can get into an article. Don't allow yourself a dictionary until afterwards. Read often and shoot for speed.

That's just my 2 cents. I'm open to other ideas!

[QuackingShoe]

Psy's tips are great for any kind of test you take - unfortunately, taking tests is a skill in itself, and tests test that skill more than what they claim to test. So it helps to get good at taking tests in the way he describes.

But more toward just reading in general, read, read, read. As Javizy suggests, make sure you're reading authentic Japanese material written for Japanese speakers, not just homework. Also, even amongst that, consider supplementing (if not entirely replacing!) your 'study' reading time with pure recreational reading. You might find that a few dozen minutes or a few hours (mileages vary) are painful when you're 'studying,' but you can read for several hours or literally all day long if you're reading purely for recreation. And you'll learn about as much in that time - and more overall, since you'll be reading more.

It's hard to explain the difference between reading for study and reading for pleasure when speaking about an L2, because a lot of people confuse them, but let's just say it's important to slide off the dictionary and not worry about the things you don't understand. If you haven't done reading this way before, it can be hard to imagine how this would be beneficial, but it really, really is. Make sure you enjoy whatever it is, too.

Language is a skill, and a skill is only acquired through familiarity in doing. Pure study only takes you so far; you have to get out there and experience it. Experience it a lot.

[AcidSky]

thanks people for your answers. Pretty good tips in there as well. I particularly like the Wiki and Recreational ideas. I guess I still consider reading too much a "hassle" to enjoy it. It tends to become very frustrating knowing how fast I can read in English while fighting for 15 minutes over 1 f***ing page of Japanese.
But I guess you are right. It is a skill afterall. And practice will yield results... some day I will try to find some recreational materials. I am not that much of a Manga fan so in case you have some other idea of what I could read (1450 RabbitPress Kanji Cards so far), I would greatly appreciate it.
thanks again!

[QuackingShoe]

First I'd recommend reconsidering Manga, since it's a broad medium and there may be genres that you do enjoy if you can find them. I think Azuma Kiyohiko's manga (Azumanga Daioh, Yotsubato - both Slice of Life) are enjoyable for most people. The furigana and the fact that the story is also in pictures just makes the medium rather convenient.

But if you really just don't like comics as a medium, I'd consider videogames next. They're actually what I spend the most time on. Very scene-intensive RPGs like the PSX line of Final Fantasy games (especially 9) are nice (things like Zelda are fun too, but the game-to-story ratio tends to be balanced so you spend a lot more time just playing than practicing any Japanese), and I also really recommend visual novels, if you can find anything you like - which can be challenging. But for example, the Ace Attorney series is an absolute blast. While I'd normally recommend not caring too much about how much you understand, though, you'll obviously need to be able to understand enough of that game to at least solve the cases.
Note that Visual Novels are often confused with Dating Sims, which isn't accurate (they're different game genres). Though a lot of them are focused on romance, and many are also erotic. But this isn't always the case, as in my example of Ace Attorney. Also things like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, though that may be distasteful for other reasons (violent horror).

Finally there's always just novels! Novels don't actually have to be worked up to or anything. You can go after 'em right away. It's just about finding something that's enjoyable to read. And don't always fight for 15 minutes over one page! Let yourself just read through, even if you're not catching on to what it's saying. Spend time just letting yourself read.
Personally, I've found that I prefer reading other things at the moment, probably just due to my mental state, but there's no reason not to try. Especially light novels.. I've heard Kino's Journey is nice and somewhat simple? Or perhaps some nonfiction. I remember wanting to read ホームレス中学生 when I heard about it, but so far I haven't.

There's also magazines, technical manuals, newspapers, religious texts, horoscopes, whatever floats your boat. A nice blog is http://nihongodaybyday.blogspot.com/ . Japanese blog about Japanese. We all at least share that interest, right?

Good luck!

[Belton]

my 2 円
You learn reading by reading.
It sounds a bit trite but the more you can attempt to read the easier it gets as you start to encounter the same structures and phrases again and again. Practice on subjects that interest you. (as per Quack-san) Rather than obsessively looking up each word try to read nearer your level and develop skills in guessing meaning from contexts. (Extensive Reading -- The Level 4 books from http://www.ask-digital.co.jp/tadoku/4.html are rated at Kyuu2, and this book might only just edge into JLPT2 but is quite good http://www.shiawase.co.uk/2007/09/07/various-stories/ )

The problem is checking your comprehension. JLPT2 does this through questions. Any similar tests you can find will prepare you.
http://www.japanese-nihongo.com/books/index.html
has reading task books for JLPT 1 and 2.
After taking them under exam conditions you could do Intensive Reading where you look up everything you don't know.
Having linked vocabulary helps as well I think. Learning vocabulary in thematic groups, or in opposing pairs or verb and noun groupings is better than learning random words.
If you are doing this as exam technique concentrate on the JLPT lists and research the type of topics they set. Check the JLPT grammar patterns. Essentially the grammar assigned to JLPT2 should be the grammar you'll see in the reading part of the test.

The best thing I found for checking comprehension is commenting in Japanese on Japanese blogs. or through email exchange. (here you might also be able to double check understanding through English) If you can hold conversation in this way you should be understanding what's going on.

I understand your frustration at reading speed in Japanese. I feel like I'm 6 again at times. I wonder If I'd ever read Japanese for pleasure the same way I use English, but you never know.

[Jessi]

All of the recommendations in this thread have been great! As an alternative to full out novels (which are great but could be hard to get into/continue for a long time), I'd recommend books filled with essays. Usually these are compliations of essays that have been published as a serial in a publication of some kind, like a magazine or newspaper. They're usually pretty short (2~3 pages each) and not that hard to read (it does depend on the author though). I have read essay books written by famous people and I'm currently in the middle of an essay book that was given to me by my Japanese teacher where each essay is about a different place in Japan or the world. Maybe the word column would be more appropriate - they're often humorous and full of anecdotes, nothing dry and boring.
Anyways, just another idea for something to read!

[Taurus]

this book might only just edge into JLPT2 but is quite good http://www.shiawase.co.uk/2007/09/07/various-stories/ )

That looks interesting - where can you get it? (I could, of course, google it, but I thought I might as well ask here instead...)

[Belton]

@Taurus
I got it in JP Books in the Basement of Mitsukoshi. It was a bit expensive then, with the yen at the moment....

[Javizy]

All of the recommendations in this thread have been great! As an alternative to full out novels (which are great but could be hard to get into/continue for a long time), I'd recommend books filled with essays. Usually these are compliations of essays that have been published as a serial in a publication of some kind, like a magazine or newspaper. They're usually pretty short (2~3 pages each) and not that hard to read (it does depend on the author though). I have read essay books written by famous people and I'm currently in the middle of an essay book that was given to me by my Japanese teacher where each essay is about a different place in Japan or the world. Maybe the word column would be more appropriate - they're often humorous and full of anecdotes, nothing dry and boring.
Anyways, just another idea for something to read!

Are they the ones called (超)短編小説? The first real Japanese book I read was Haruki Murakami's 夜のくもざる, which mostly consists of wacky 3-page stories with a large font and a handful of lines per page. He also seems to go quite easy on the kanji, so it was quite accessible for me at the time. Do you have any other recommendations?

At the moment, I'm reading キッチン by Banana Yoshimoto and have Murakami's 風の歌を聴け, as well. They're both really small with 150-ish pages, so I'm not sure if they are full-on novels or not. I don't think the stories are to my usual tastes either, but I only know a handful of authors. I don't suppose you know any good sites to find information on some good books?

AcidSky, you don't need to be a manga fan to get something out of them. It's just a medium, so it's kind of like saying 'I don't like films or books'; there's likely to be some sort of genre or series that will appeal to you. I'd never read one before I started studying, but they make getting exposure to written Japanese a breeze. You pretty much only have to digest speech bubbles of text, so you can forget about f***ing 15-minute syndrome. I usually read some when I don't feel like I can concentrate on a proper book.

By the way, if you don't have an electronic dictionary or iPhone/iTouch, you should seriously consider getting one. I never really got into reading at length before getting mine, but now it's so easy to look up words quickly and add them to vocabulary lists.

[Jessi]

No, I think they're different from (超)短編小説 in that they're not fictional stories but short pieces that are more like the author's commentary on everyday life or pieces that recount their personal experiences. They're simply referred to as エッセイ in Japanese. It's a genre I'm still getting into so I don't have many recommendations (yet!), but the book I'm currently reading is 此処彼処, where each essay is about a different place that the author likes or has fond memories of. There are quite a few obscure words and kanji that pop up, making it a bit challenging.

[sakurakofahl]

I agree with the already mentioned advice, and would like to share some additional thoughts.

When thinking of what to read, I think it's helpful to start with texts (articles, books, manga, whatever) dealing with subjects and themes you are interested in and know some (or a lot) about.
I think it's very beneficial also to read the text in your own language first and then read the Japanese translation/original, since you know what this particular one is about and what vocabulary and grammar you might expect. And knowing the contents already probably keeps your motivation to continue reading.

I have tried reading texts that might be useful for practice for JLPT (like texts from JLPT books, or samples from old tests), but which I personally found very boring and/or difficult at the time (because I wasn't interested in the subject, it contained too many difficult words/kanji/expressions/grammar, or because I simply found it boring ) That method really didn't give much in the long run.

So I'm convinced that reading interesting and/or familiar texts is better, since you get more motivated (and therefore mor likely) to pick up the new words (kanji, grammar, expressions etc) there, and will recognize a lot later when you encounter the less interesting ones.

Oh, and reading different kinds of texts will of course give you broader knowledge, both in vocabulary and how texts of different kinds are written.

I hope you'll find this useful!