日本語の「past conditional」の使い方を教えて

[hkittysmoothie]

Right now I can only seem to express the present conditional with grammar like たら、なら、と、etc. For example, 「食べ過ぎたら太る」(if you eat too much, you'll get fat.)

Is there a way to express the other forms of conditional, such as the "improbable" condition that's present in English and Spanish? For example, "If I had a car, I would go to the party" or "Si yo tuviera un coche, iría a la fiesta".

What about the "unreal" conditional? Such as "If you hadn't told the secret, neither of us would have been in trouble."

Are the distinctions even made in Japanese? If so, how?

[Jessi]

The "improbable" and "unreal" conditionals that you mentioned are made by using the same conditional. Whether you're talking about the present and past will mostly depend on the tense of the latter half of the sentence. For example:

車があったらパーティーに行く（のに）: "If I had a car, I would go to the party"
車があったらパーティー行った（のに）: "If I had a car, I would have gone to the party"

The grammar doesn't get as complicated as in English when it comes to these kinds of hypothetical situations

The second one might be something like:
秘密をばらさなかったら私たちこんなに困らないのに...
The same conditional, only this time it's negative.

[hkittysmoothie]

Jessiさん、説明ありがとう語ございます。
But, what is the function of the (optional?) のに at the end of the example sentences?

[Jessi]

Having のに at the end of sentences like these kind of adds a feeling of regret or dissatisfcation (like in the party example, when you have のに it sounds like you really wanted to go to the party and are disappointed about not being able to go). Without のに it just seems like you're making a statement - not much emotion involved. I think a lot of these kinds of "If only..." sentences tend to use のに at the end when translated into Japanese.

[hkittysmoothie]

Thanks again for the explanation!

But wouldn't "車があったら、パーティーに行った" mean that you did go to the party? I read somewhere that putting the conditional like that just means that it was unexpected ("I had a car, and (surprisingly) I went to the party")

[marrow]

Well there're ので and のに which express if~then~...

ので：in spite of~; although~ (reverse of expected result)
のに：since~; because~ (expected result)

Here're a few examples:

明日試験があるので、勉強しなければなりません。
Since I will have an exam tomorrow, I have to study.

ケーキを作ったのに、だれも食べてくれませんでした。
Even though I made/baked a cake, no one eat it.

Not sure if that's quite what you're looking for though...Also you could use the ば/なければ forms right (if~/if not~)? It's a little complicated but...

You hear it in the commonly used 　どすればいい〜？

Here're an example:

あなたが行かなければ、私も行きません。
If you won't go, I won't go either.

Oh--and there's ならtoo.

Let's see--頭がいい人なら、簡単です。I think that'd be If you're a smart person it's easy. I don't remember 100% how to use なら.

Oh and the adv. もし means if.

Hope that helps.

[Javizy]

This stuff always confuses the hell out of me I was trying to write an explanation about why it can't mean "I went to the party", but it's hard to give a clear, all-round explanation, since it can be used to mean 'if', 'when', and in counterfactual situations.

If it helps, when the sentence is in the past tense, the clause following tara can't express an intentional action, it has to be something that happened as a subsequence, for example, 行けることになった 'it turned out I was able to go'. In either case, tara isn't the appropriate expression in this case, since it never translates as 'and' - the second clause always has to be a direct consequence of the first.

[Jessi]

But wouldn't "車があったら、パーティーに行った" mean that you did go to the party? I read somewhere that putting the conditional like that just means that it was unexpected ("I had a car, and (surprisingly) I went to the party")

It's a confusing concept, but in this case it doesn't mean that you went to the party. In the translation you have, there's no conditional for あったら. Remember that -たら means either "if" or "when" depending on the situation.

車があったらパーティーに行った。

In this example, the 行った means "would have gone" because of the existence of the conditional あったら。 In any other sentence, 行った would normally just mean "I went", like you said.

Here are a couple more examples, if it helps (Thanks ALC!)

彼に会うって分かっていたらネクタイをしてきたのに。
If I knew I was gonna meet him, I would have worn a tie.

昨日(株を)売っていればたくさんもうかったのに…
If I had sold the stock yesterday, I would have made a lot...

[hkittysmoothie]

分かりました！
もう一回「説明ありがとうございます」と言いますよ！

[Jessi]

I came across a lesson that actually goes over this very topic! (In this lesson, though, they use "ba"). They call it the "counter factual conditional":

http://www.japanesepod101.com/2008/05/0 ... e-burbs-4/

Enjoy