Textbook Advice, please help!

[learninggirl]

Self-learner needing advice...


I have 4 contenders listed below, and I’d really appreciate experienced feedback. I've researched Genki and already decided against it. To give a better idea of what I’m looking for, here is a wish list I’ve thrown together:

+I want the pitch accents of vocab to somehow be outlined. And I want something with up-to-date vocabulary, not talking about VHS and snail mail, etc. Along those same lines I don't want all the dialogue to be about student life.
+I’m keen on seeing kanji regularly so I’ll begin to recognize them. (with furigana would be ideal.) If there were graphics of how their etymology evolved=WOOOOW!
+I want to be able to create my own sentences, so I am looking for a “grammar bible” that I can actually READ. (Not too technical/stuffy/long-winded prattle. It makes my brain turn off.) However, if a book is stellar in every other way but grammar is a bit weak, I can always get “Japanese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar” or something like that.
+Online resources/audio are a perk, but not a necessity.


An Introduction to Modern Japanese: Volume 1, Grammar Lessons
by Richard John Bowring & Haruko Uryu Laurie

It’s use of full kana and kanji in example sentences reminds me of iknow, so I sort of fell in love with that. (It makes me face the language square on instead of jumping to the translation before reading through.) However, because I won’t be able to select+copy+past new words into jisho.org, I can see the honeymoon going sour VERY fast. Does anyone have experience with this book? Do you like it? I could only view the first chapter, if that.

vs
Japanese for Everyone: A Functional Approach to Daily Communication
by Susumu Nagara

I can only see the first few pages on Amazon.com. The example is not even a lesson so much as “how to pronounce Japanese”. But it does an awesome job. I like the brackets used to explain rhythm, and she had these dot-graph looking things for accent patterns. Does the rest of the book continue using that chart when new vocabulary is introduced? It is so cool.

vs

Japanese for College Students I: Text (Japanese for College Students Vol. 1)
by International Christian University
Also seems very good, and uses kana. They claim to have “plentiful examples” which is NICE for grammar. Uses Casset tapes, so I am dubious about how contemporary it is. Leaning towards this because of price, but will I be buying time wasted? (that I could have had a good text book with.)

Minna no Nihongo from http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/books/books_01.html also looks intriguing but I couldn't find any nitty-gritty reviews. Is it good?

Thank you!

[tanitayou]

hi, learninggirl,
I don't know your Japanese level, but I think you are more or less a beginner student. I'm nearly ready for JLPT 2 so I can give you my suggestion about books.
I had the complete series "Japanese for College Students " during the univesity course. They are good, but the vocab. is strictly connected with students environnement.
I used by myself the complete series of "shin nihongo no kiso".It's the same editor of "Minna no nihongo" but more focused on real life and job's problems. There are two main books (volI and II), the grammar explanation very easy to understand,the translation in your favourite language and the exercise book. (these 3 are divided in 2 sets, for book 1 an book 2)
There is also a CD set with a lot of exercises(more complete than "Japanese for College S) .You can easily study and practice listenig comprehension.
I think that the 2 book for kanji learning are not very useful at very beginning .Let's use them after completing the first half of book 1.
A good book for kanji is "Basic kanji book " 1 and 2 (Bonjinsha).
Ganbattene!

[Belton]

2円 for what it's worth.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a perfect textbook out there. You'll probably find yourself using several and you'll also find that they generally cover the same material in roughly the same order.

Of the texts you mention I only have experience of Minna No Nihongo. and only of their supplementary texts. Reading practice, Composition practice, Listening Practice.
These I found very well produced and I liked that they concentrated on a specific task I was interested in. Not sure whether it's a plus or a minus but the texts are all in Japanese. I'm not sure they are suitable for a beginner outside of a classroom environment.

I think the Japanese for Busy People series is worth a look especially if you are a complete beginner. The current edition is quite good value combining text with workbook and Audio CD. It is more geared towards daily life, and business in a general way than school situations in it's themes.
Grammar points are laid out fairly simply and in an accessible form. Kanji are used from Book 2 on. By the end of Book 3 you'd be at an Intermediate level at least.
Usually the form of exercises is giving you a structure as a starting point for you to make you own sentences etc.

About your wishes.
Pitch just isn't in fashion. It's very cumbersome to mark, especially if you use kanji and kana. It isn't static either. The thinking is it's better learnt through example audio and mimicry of a good native example. Of the concerns of people writing textbooks etc. have, pitch accent is way down the list.

Grammar Bible. The definitive works seem to be the Dictionary of Grammar series from Japan Times. I only wish they were cheaper and in electronic form for easier reference.
Various sentence pattern books from Kodansha are very useful grammar/workbook hybrids I've found.

Kanji etymology.
Henshall's book "Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters" is probably the best although the typesetting leaves a lot to be desired now. Also his mnemonics aren't very useful, I just use it as a reference.
Online there's www.kanjinetworks.com. Which is very comprehensive but lacks detail in individual characters entrys.
Etymology isn't always useful to learning kanji. It does help you understand the systems behind kanji much better however.

[mieth]

I personally think that you shouldnt waste your time on a text book at all. They just arent that helpful. I have been going to language schools in Japan for 18 months monday through friday 4 hours a day and I am about to start at a University here where all my classes will be conducted in Japanese. I still know I have a long long way to go with my Japanese but I dont really accredit much to how far I have come to any text books at all. So my recommendations are as follows.

Buy Japanese pod 101 subscription. Listen to ten a day from the beginning. Just here alone will get you solidly able to pass Jlpt lvl 3.

For kanji and kana practice go to this awesome free website www.readthekanji.com
Do 500 flash cards a day on whatever level you are working on. If you dont have time then try to do at least 50 for the day.

Buy the grammar dictionaries Guide to basic japanese grammar as well the intermediate version. You mentioned wanting the pronunciations listed in your textbook. I can tell you even if they are written there it isnt going to help you one bit. Ive been teaching english here for over two years and almost all the electronic dictionaries have the pronunciations for the words written in them and I am yet to meet a student who has properly pronounced a word from the pronunciation guide. It hasnt helped them and it wont help you.

Next you might want to go to youtube and look up the following two cartoons that use very real life everyday language. They are short sweet and somewhat funny. No subs. THey are kurayon shinchan and atashinchi. This will help your japanese immensely. Rinse repreat.

There you have it everything you need to get to an upper intermediate level of japanese. Enjoy.

[Javizy]

I'd throw the pitch accent stuff out of the window, as well. You simply aren't going to remember it in six months by reading some awkward markings above the words. Get yourself a copy of Shadowing: Let's Speak Japanese, or at least read the introduction on the site, which details the method.

The Japan Times dictionaries get my backing as well. I haven't used any of the textbooks you mentioned, but a lot of users on here who have asked grammar related questions seem to, and it seems like they miss some vitally key points, especially when it comes to the differences between similar expressions. They are concise and probably the most in-depth you're going to find in English, but they might fall under your 'long winded' category; it all depends on your attitude and how you make use of them, though.

There's a recent discussion about learning kanji here.

[Taurus]

I don't know what your level is, but for a beginner, my vote would be Minna no Nihongo plus the accompanying CDs. It's structured really well, both in terms of the order it teaches you the vocab, but also the way the grammar builds up, and it'll take you towards an intermediate level by the time you complete it.

I'm basically at the end of it now, and I'm sort of transitioning into sentence mining, which is recommended by various people, but I like Barry Farber'sexplanation the best: he suggests taking a newspaper and trying to read an article. Highlight every word or phrase in it that you don't understand; then translate each of those words and phrases using dictionaries/phrasebooks/grammar dictionaries or whatever; then learn each of those words and phrases using flash cards; then repeat. And of course, as you repeate the process, the amount of stuff you'll be highlighting will gradually decrease. And also of course, you don't have to stick to newspapers - you could use whatever source you like (including Jpod101 conversations!).

For that reason, I'd also recommend the Complete Master Series (which I think might be by the same people) because it's got loads of sample sentences that you can stick into an SRS flashcard program, and because the grammar explanations are well-ordered and well-explained.

[Ulver_684]

Self-learner needing advice...


I have 4 contenders listed below, and I’d really appreciate experienced feedback. I've researched Genki and already decided against it. To give a better idea of what I’m looking for, here is a wish list I’ve thrown together:

+I want the pitch accents of vocab to somehow be outlined. And I want something with up-to-date vocabulary, not talking about VHS and snail mail, etc. Along those same lines I don't want all the dialogue to be about student life.
+I’m keen on seeing kanji regularly so I’ll begin to recognize them. (with furigana would be ideal.) If there were graphics of how their etymology evolved=WOOOOW!
+I want to be able to create my own sentences, so I am looking for a “grammar bible” that I can actually READ. (Not too technical/stuffy/long-winded prattle. It makes my brain turn off.) However, if a book is stellar in every other way but grammar is a bit weak, I can always get “Japanese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar” or something like that.
+Online resources/audio are a perk, but not a necessity.


An Introduction to Modern Japanese: Volume 1, Grammar Lessons
by Richard John Bowring & Haruko Uryu Laurie

It’s use of full kana and kanji in example sentences reminds me of iknow, so I sort of fell in love with that. (It makes me face the language square on instead of jumping to the translation before reading through.) However, because I won’t be able to select+copy+past new words into jisho.org, I can see the honeymoon going sour VERY fast. Does anyone have experience with this book? Do you like it? I could only view the first chapter, if that.

vs
Japanese for Everyone: A Functional Approach to Daily Communication
by Susumu Nagara

I can only see the first few pages on Amazon.com. The example is not even a lesson so much as “how to pronounce Japanese”. But it does an awesome job. I like the brackets used to explain rhythm, and she had these dot-graph looking things for accent patterns. Does the rest of the book continue using that chart when new vocabulary is introduced? It is so cool.

vs

Japanese for College Students I: Text (Japanese for College Students Vol. 1)
by International Christian University
Also seems very good, and uses kana. They claim to have “plentiful examples” which is NICE for grammar. Uses Casset tapes, so I am dubious about how contemporary it is. Leaning towards this because of price, but will I be buying time wasted? (that I could have had a good text book with.)

Minna no Nihongo from http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/books/books_01.html also looks intriguing but I couldn't find any nitty-gritty reviews. Is it good?

Thank you!

Learning girl-san!

Here are some useful textbook from HesJapanese:

http://www.hesjapanese.com/Study_Materi ... akana.html

http://www.hesjapanese.com/Study_Material/Grammar.html

http://www.hesjapanese.com/Study_Material/Kanji.html

I have some of this books myself and they have been very useful for me but I agree with Javizy-san post too!

[learninggirl]

sweet, thanks for the advice, all. Though to clarify, I never expected there is a book with EVERYTHING, but I figured a list of what I'm interested in would help the recommendation process. btw, I asked the same question at the smart.fm forum, and got some different recommendations. So anyone interested can check it out here http://smart.fm/user_forum/56/topic/2240768.