How do you study?

[jazzbeans]

Currently, because I'm doing exams for college, I don't have much time for studying Japanese. For the meantime, I just regually write blog entries and converse with my e-penpals. It's not much time devoted to learning the language, but I do find myself learning new things every day, which is a good sign.

All the people I speak to are native to Japanese and a great help with learning about the language as well as cultural information about Japan. I also listen to podcasts and music to help too.

But, I wondered how other people learn. Once my exams are over I hope to involve myself more in the language, I guess I'll start reading my books more. Do most people here study with books?

[wccrawford]

Personally, I study with iKnow.co.jp and by reading easy manga and watching anime.

iKnow really helps get the basic vocab down, and the reading and watching really help lock things in place. Plus, it's a huge charge to see things you've recently learned and know what they mean.

[Javizy]

For kanji, I used Heisig, which got all the pain of learning to write and remember characters out of the way. I now review them with Anki, which is just seeing the word and writing the character, and now down to about 15-20/day.

For reading, I'm going through the massive 14,000+ card Ultimate Japanese deck on the Anki website with Rikaichan at about 60 cards/day, which has massively boosted my vocabulary and familiarity with kanji only 2500 cards in. I'd say this is probably the single most useful thing for quickly developing my Japanese at the moment. If there was a better version of Anki available on the iPod, I'd add a couple of extra decks that I don't have time to go through.

For grammar, I have the Seiichi Makino dictionaries, which are very detailed yet concise, and make learning stuff I see in real Japanese quick and easy to learn. I usually learn on a need-to-know basis, and review occasionally.

Then, I just do what you've been doing, which is probably just as important as the above: listening, writing, and gaining whatever exposure I can. I listen to a couple of JPod lessons a day, try to write something, try to read something (easier with manga on my iPod ), and watch an episode of a jdorama or something.

I don't always get everything done, but this stuff is the general aim.

[jazzbeans]

Personally, I study with iKnow.co.jp and by reading easy manga and watching anime.

What easy manga is there? I was thinking of getting some Doraemon manga (it's bi-lingual), 'cause I don't have any manga but it may prove to be useful.

[Javizy]

Personally, I study with iKnow.co.jp and by reading easy manga and watching anime.

What easy manga is there? I was thinking of getting some Doraemon manga (it's bi-lingual), 'cause I don't have any manga but it may prove to be useful.

Doraemon is the first manga I bought, but not the bilingual version. I wanted exposure to real Japanese, and at that stage I would've just used the translations as a crutch, rather than working them out myself. Translations are also heavily interpreted for the most part, so you can actually miss a lot of what's going on in the Japanese, or otherwise confuse things.

The language is pretty simple, but you still need a firm base of basic grammar and sentence structures. You might want to check the thread about contractions as well, because I remember trying to look up all sorts of verbs connected with auxiliaries without realising it. Don't worry so much about understanding every word either; as long as you understand what's going on and add new words to your vocabulary, the rest will become clearer as you continue with your regular studies.

[wccrawford]

For some reason, I just don't like Doraemon, though most people do.

I started with Yotsuba&, which is probably intended for preteen girls. It's about a little girl and her misadventures while growing up. If it weren't so easy to read, I admit I wouldn't bother with it.

I agree with Javizy, btw: Stay away from the bilingual stuff.

[Javizy]

Something I forgot to mention about studying, and have been neglecting lately, is shadowing. I've raved about it in other threads quite a bit, but I think realistically it's the only way you're going to get close to native-level pronunciation.

I wonder if the new guy in the upper intermediate lessons has done this. Asides from him, the only foreigner with great pronunciation I've heard was an interpreter on TV who had done it a lot in the past. A lot of people assume living in Japan makes all the difference, but (no offence to the guy) Peter is living proof that you can live there for 10 years and still sound as American as a 1/4 pounder with cheese.

[trev93]

Using iKnow, Rosetta Stone, and the J-Pod.

[jazzbeans]

Something I forgot to mention about studying, and have been neglecting lately, is shadowing. I've raved about it in other threads quite a bit, but I think realistically it's the only way you're going to get close to native-level pronunciation.

I'm going to buy the Shadowing item you recommended to me on a previous topic. But, is it really that important to adopt the pronounication to a near 100%? I have many friends who have accents from their native tongues or by being around their foreign parents and I don't give it a second thought. I wouldn't think it was too important (so long as you're understandable!).

[Javizy]

I don't think it's necessary, or even possible a lot of the time, but it's the ultimate aim to speak and understand as naturally as a native, isn't it? Personally, I just don't want to sound like a typical foreigner, and making sure that I speak as clearly as possible should help make up for my lack of word power, and avoid communication meltdown.

[Belton]

re: shadowing and pronunciation and accents

English has a lot of redundancy so it can accommodate accents and still be intelligible to native and fluent speakers, if not to learners. Also because English is spoken by so many people in so many accents you become used to this variety.

Japanese has much fewer sounds. I'd say you could quickly become unintelligible by changing these sounds slightly, maybe even saying different words. Also Japanese are just not used to foreign accents. It seems to me that rather than regional accents there are regional dialects, but Japanese can slip in and out of various ways of speaking depending on the situation.
Also with loan words you have to use the Japanese way not the English way or again you might not be understood.

So yes I'd say it is important to pronounce words properly / in a standard way. As Japanese is so regular this isn't that hard. The major benefit of shadowing is to speed up your language in speaking and listening to help with fluency and flow.

[jazzbeans]

I'm definitely going to do shadowing and I even repeat what I hear now because I want to get a good flow, etc, as my speech is very rigid at the moment.

But, I don't think I could tell if I were sounding more Japanese by doing it. I would probably have to find someone who was native to the language to teach me how to sound convincingly Japanese - a person to pick out all my flaws for me.

I cannot be self-aware as to whether I sound English still or not, I suppose that's what I'm saying. But, of course I don't say things like, "Podcast" in the same way as I would in English, I use their "Poddokyasuto" instead. I dump the English way of speaking.

[Javizy]

I'm definitely going to do shadowing and I even repeat what I hear now because I want to get a good flow, etc, as my speech is very rigid at the moment.

But, I don't think I could tell if I were sounding more Japanese by doing it. I would probably have to find someone who was native to the language to teach me how to sound convincingly Japanese - a person to pick out all my flaws for me.

I cannot be self-aware as to whether I sound English still or not, I suppose that's what I'm saying. But, of course I don't say things like, "Podcast" in the same way as I would in English, I use their "Poddokyasuto" instead. I dump the English way of speaking.

This should come with time if you continue listening as much as you can. After hearing enough, you begin to understand what Japanese is supposed to sound like, and this in turn allows you to spot your own mistakes, regional accents, and gammy gaijin-go. Shadowing should just make it that little bit easier, since you're doing everything in real-time, the differences will become obvious when your ear attunes to them.

That said, it seems that some people are "accent-deaf", in the same way that people are tone deaf with singing, and bending on guitar. Some people I have heard, even experienced speakers, are just so bad that I have to believe they either don't care or they're completely oblivious to it. My best piece of advice is to simply imitate native speakers as best you can, and the rest will start to fall into place with time, like a lot of aspects of the language

[hajime]

I think shadowing is a great tool but I just don't have time to do it. JPod fits my schedule and lifestyle much better. An MP3 player and a printed PDF is a really powerful and portable tool.

Also, with respect to the original topic, I firmly believe in "input before output". The most important first thing (IMHO) is to be able to hear Japanese and understand what is being said. The difference between short and long o. 小さいつ 、etc.

Quick example: I had the worst time getting 自由時間 じゆうじかん (free time). I kept hearing じゅうじかん, which is very close to the same sound but if you try to look this up on the computer or dictionary, you will have a very hard time finding it. I also continue to have problems with ず versus づ.

I think it is great idea to "shadow along" and you can do this with the JPod lessons also (line by line audio, etc.). However, until you can hear all of the subtle pronunciation nuances in the language, you will be lost. Input before output.

[jclemons]

I really like the Jpod101 line by line audio. It's probably one of the most useful things one could do.

Before I used to listen to dramas or anime and type everything I heard then do again and again until I got it all. Very tiresome and repetitive. The line by line audio really simplifies this and is a lot more efficient.

Otherwise I enjoy reading magazine articles and newspaper articles for reading practice. For listening practice I usually listen to the podcast or watch dramas.

Speaking practice is easy living in Japan I guess... I go to a local sushi place on Mondays when beer is only 200yen and talk with all the old men about politics and economics for fun.