You're trying to make an arbitrary distinction between 'words' and other sounds and sentences and etc where none exist. This pattern exists because it's easier to SAY, which has everything to do with sound flow and nothing to do with words or nonwords.
ZeRinku wrote:I know I am thinking too much about this but I have a few more questions that I just want to ask to be sure. When you shorten the sounds this come between words like haku hito for example does it then fall under the rule that you must say it to sound natural? So would it be hak(u) hito?
Just pretend I never said anything was optional at all.
ZeRinku wrote:When you say the end of a utterance or phrase do you mean at the end of a complete sentence? So for example you can't say sush(i)desu. right? But I hear ik(u)ze a lot...also how do this work with compound sentences ect.? Like complete, complete end of a sentence? What about the gobi sentences endings like ne, yo, ze ect. do those count? I swear I have heard des(u) ne though. Does the gobi count as actual words(syllables) in this rule?
When people stop talking for a period long enough that sound contractions aren't beneficial in any way. It's like stopping in the middle of "you're." "You....re sure?" It doesn't happen. Same with 'gotcha' or 'whatcha' or etc. As for iku ze, I hear and say the 'u'. It can be a little downplayed I suppose(largely due to the forcefulness it's typically said with), but it's different from what it would sound like if it were actually voiceless. Similarly, there's a noticeable difference between the su in sentence final desu and in desu ne or desu ga.
ZeRinku wrote:And also with the 'i' sound being cut off...especially at the end of a sentence or word...how would that sound? I haven't even heard it in the middle of a word. I don't think I ever heard it before...do you mean only the 'shi' and 'chi' sounds for the 'i' sounds? Or every 'i' sound?
Also does the small 'tsu' sound apply to any of the rules?
Every i sound, no っ doesn't change anything. You have heard it, it's what they do when they say 'watashitachi', as mentioned. You could look at that as not one word, I suppose, but one needs to realize how unimportant word boundaries can be in Japanese.
ZeRinku wrote:So, you wouldn't say hatch(i)desu. correct? But if I say (I know its not grammatically correct but...) hatachi hito desu. to sound correct in Tokyo dialect I have to say hatch(i)hito desu, right? And the actual right pronunciation of watashi wa is watash(i) wa? But I think I have heard watashi wa before. Is it optional between words(particles)? And futatsu desu would be f(u)tatsu desu. but if I just say futatsu it can be f(u)tats(u), right? The silent 'u' in 'fu' would be...weird. At least I would think...
'w' is a voiced consonant, not a voiceless one. watashi wa is pronounced fully. watash(i) to is not. Honestly, just try to say 'watash(i) wa'. It's annoying to say, and it sounds silly. Try saying 'watashI to'. It's annoying to say, and it sounds silly. It seems that way inherently to me, but maybe it's NOT. Maybe it's only because I've heard it often enough. But that's even more evidence that you need to spend less time thinking about it and more time listening to it.
And yes, the voiceless vowels make the already soft 'h' line a little interesting particularly at the beginning of a word. You could miss them entirely. 'futatsu' and 'hitotsu' are good examples. When I first started Japanese, I could barely hear the difference, mostly because I nearly couldn't hear the 'fu' or 'hi' at all. Well, the sound quality of what I was listening to didn't help either...
Same with 'hito'. COMPLETELY standardized Japanese like you'd hear off an audio CD makes the 'hi' seem almost non-present to the untrained ear.
ZeRinku wrote:Then, hayaku iku would be hayaku ik(u)<-optional 'ku', right? And hayaku sumu would have to be hayak(u) sumu, right?
Presumably, but I've never actually heard someone say 'hayaku sumu' before, eheh. Also, hayaku is often said with enough pause and focus (as if with a comma) that it's fully pronounced.
ZeRinku wrote:And when you say K,S,T,P,H do you mean every sound in that group? Like chi in the 't' group ect?
Yes
ZeRinku wrote:Last question, I know this is looking WAY too much into it but...if you are in the middle of a sentence and stop with a word like hatachi but the next word you start a second or two later doesn't have k,s,t,p,h in the first syllable can you still say hatach(i)? Also what about saying something like watashi, gakusei. would you say watash(i) gak(u)sei? The proper way would be watashi gak(u)sei, right? But what if I stopped after watashi to think then said gakusei? Can it be watash(i)...gak(u)sei.?
I suppose. I feel like watashi tends to get it's full pronunciation in isolation, but in principle I suppose it's true.
You apparently posted every time you meant to preview... might want to clean that up.
Finally, don't take any of what I'm saying that seriously if you find blatant contradictions. I'm speaking exclusively from personal experience and what's honestly a very short blurb in a pretty old textbook. I'm kindof waiting for someone else to sweep in with a more comprehensive view on all this, but it seems like no one else really thinks about this stuff at all... which is probably the way to be. Just listen. Although, on the other hand, I've found this kindof educational for myself. Mmm.
Anyway. Good luck!
